50 replies to this topic

[Robert Fleurke]

Autoholic, on Jan 23 2013 - 01:08 PM, said:

Actually, the steering ratio used on a KB is much more important than on a wheel. You only have a finite amount of input on a KB, making the most of that is critical. The setup for a car has to be far more precise than on a wheel in order to get the most out of the car.

Because you have less precise input, steering ratio's and setups are less important, than when you're using 100% linearity. However, lower steering ratio's are prolly more effective with a KB.

[Phil W]

Autoholic, on Jan 23 2013 - 01:08 PM, said:

Thanks for the info Bob and what you posted is useful to this thread. My point was saying that a realistic steering ratio is pointless for a keyboard is BS. While I agree that a KB isn't realistic, if you cannot afford a wheel ATM, quick steering ratios will still matter just as much as they do for wheel users. Actually, the steering ratio used on a KB is much more important than on a wheel. You only have a finite amount of input on a KB, making the most of that is critical. The setup for a car has to be far more precise than on a wheel in order to get the most out of the car. I wish I had the cash for a wheel setup but I'm a college student, I don't have lots of spare money.

Consider a cheap analog gamepad, with keys the throttle help & braking help are always on. You won't learn much about GPL physics using aids.

[Autoholic]

Robert Fleurke, on Jan 23 2013 - 02:28 PM, said:

Because you have less precise input, steering ratio's and setups are less important, than when you're using 100% linearity. However, lower steering ratio's are prolly more effective with a KB.

Using 100% linearity, this is correct. Using between 40-60% non-linearity, this is vastly incorrect. The steering ratio still matters a whole lot on a KB. The quicker I can make the turn, the better. Also, the steering ratio matters a ton due to wheel travel. A 15:1 ratio is very cumbersome in a tight corner. You cannot continuously turn the steering wheel lock to lock in GPL. At 15:1 on a KB, my range of motion is a lot less than say 7:1. I cannot make the hairpin turn in Monaco with a 15:1 ratio, the wheel simply does not turn enough. 15:1 is a quick ratio for a sports car, not a F1 car.

[M Needforspeed]

I use a 340° lock to lock Speedwayland steering wheel.
Reading Bob and Remco posts and I cld check if the 7:1 I use was correct. Until today, I though using 9:1 wld give me a more realistic feeling, but in fact 7:1 is finally better;

Though it is  a precision wheel, that rack is very sensitive, even on a straight, I shld go for a 6/1

340/2 = 170 / 6:1 =  28 max angle,not far from the Lotus 49 30 °.

Edited by M Needforspeed, Jan 23 2013 - 05:23 PM.

[Autoholic]

For comparative purposes, what are your guys 'Ring times? I'm sure mine is slow at 10'44" but I also haven't put dozens, even hundreds, of hours in it. This is my first week of actually being able to play the game.

Oh, and even though I'm a KB I don't have brake or accel assist on.

Edited by Autoholic, Jan 23 2013 - 05:10 PM.

[davef]

Phil, on Jan 23 2013 - 03:10 PM, said:

Consider a cheap analog gamepad, with keys the throttle help & braking help are always on. You won't learn much about GPL physics using aids.

Hi Autoholic !  I use & enjoy this fine gamepad since a wheel & pedals are not in my family budget. It has very good steering
for a gamepad , probably the best u will find ? It's wireless with an optical wheel & plenty of buttons for clutch, shifting & brake.
I think I paid between $40-50 US Dollars , but I'm sure u can probably find it for less if you search around.

http://www.thrustmas...limited-edition

( I am not a very fast GPLer but svenvangent here at the forum is a top driver & uses a gamepad,)

Edited by davef, Jan 23 2013 - 05:50 PM.

[Phil W]

Autoholic, on Jan 23 2013 - 05:08 PM, said:

For comparative purposes, what are your guys 'Ring times? I'm sure mine is slow at 10'44" but I also haven't put dozens, even hundreds, of hours in it. This is my first week of actually being able to play the game.

Oh, and even though I'm a KB I don't have brake or accel assist on.

Yes you do, unticking them in the menu has no effect if you use keys.
For lap times, check out GPL Rank.

[Autoholic]

I've been thinking about using my gamepad. In the past, gamepads have been overly sensitive for computer driving games IMO. Steering sensitivity was really hard to set. I've been needing to get the W7 version of Xpadder downloaded to try it with GPL.

[Robert Fleurke]

Autoholic, on Jan 23 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:

Robert Fleurke, on Jan 23 2013 - 02:28 PM, said:

Because you have less precise input, steering ratio's and setups are less important, than when you're using 100% linearity. However, lower steering ratio's are prolly more effective with a KB.

Using 100% linearity, this is correct. Using between 40-60% non-linearity, this is vastly incorrect. The steering ratio still matters a whole lot on a KB. The quicker I can make the turn, the better. Also, the steering ratio matters a ton due to wheel travel. A 15:1 ratio is very cumbersome in a tight corner. You cannot continuously turn the steering wheel lock to lock in GPL. At 15:1 on a KB, my range of motion is a lot less than say 7:1. I cannot make the hairpin turn in Monaco with a 15:1 ratio, the wheel simply does not turn enough. 15:1 is a quick ratio for a sports car, not a F1 car.

It all depends on your device, input, track characteristic and driving style. As I said before in this thread, use what you're comfortable with. 15:1 is an often used steering ratio for 270degrees wheels, this compares to 7,5:1 for a 540degrees wheel. Non linear drivers often use 7:1 to 10:1.

Setups aren't that important in GPL anyhow, especially when you are starting. Try to start with default with less fuel, or Ali setups. (Alison Hine). They are pretty stable. Finetuning setups is only important to get those last tenths.

Good luck with your GPL career, it will be a steep learning curve ;-)

Edited by Robert Fleurke, Jan 26 2013 - 06:33 PM.

[Autoholic]

Thanks for the pointers.

For people using gamepads, what are your controls? The steering is more accurate but pedals are worse right now. I have 2 joysticks, the left one is to steer and the right one is pedals, minus clutch. The 2 of the 4 triggers are for up and down shifting. To me, even a gamepad is useless for a clutch. Is there a useful way of having a clutch on a gamepad? The game doesn't require you to use a clutch to shift, so it would only help in first gear. Only a joystick could work correctly as a clutch but I don't see an easy way to implement it.

Edited by Autoholic, Jan 23 2013 - 07:40 PM.

[Bob Simpson]

Before, you talked about a ratio not letting you get around the hairpins at Monaco, but there's a fix.  In the core.ini configuration file in the main GPL folder, you can set

[ Hack ]
steer_ratio=1

which will vary the ratio from what you've got in the setup down to 7:1 gradually as you slow from 60 to 25 mph.

[Autoholic]

Thanks Bob, that's interesting. I'll have to try it. That was with a 15:1 or 16:1 steering ratio though, I haven't tried Monaco with my new setup. What is the difference between this mod and just setting it to 7:1?

On a different topic that will end up with its own thread, I'm working on creating a spreadsheet for setting up your gear ratios. You input various things like wheel diameter, shift RPM, etc and it will tell you the RPM after the shift and max speed in each gear. This is useful for trying to keep the revs between a certain area and then adjusting your gears to be a specific speed you desire. I already have the foundation, I just have to convert it for GPL purposes.

Edited by Autoholic, Jan 23 2013 - 08:12 PM.

[Bob Simpson]

The difference is that you can go down the high speed straights with a nice stable 15:1 ratio, but in the slow corners you'll have a 7:1 ratio - i.e. only when you really need it.

My wheel, with more rotation, doesn't need the hack becase I just keep turning the wheel to get a tighter turn radius.

[davef]

Autoholic, on Jan 23 2013 - 07:27 PM, said:

For people using gamepads, what are your controls?

For me :
[  gamepad controls.JPG   73.39K   68 downloads

Edited by davef, Jan 23 2013 - 09:44 PM.

[Autoholic]

Dave, I take it those are on your gamepad. What are those buttons exactly? I could use some explaining. Thanks.

[davef]

Button 1 = UPSHIFT
Button 2= THROTTLE
Button 3= DOWNSHIFT

On the underside ( not visible ) :
Used with index fingers:
Button 7= BRAKE ( Righthand )
Button 6= CLUTCH ( Lefthand )
Optical wheel controls the steering with the left thumb on tab(s) on the black outer ring ( Very smooth ! )
So lefthand is mostly devoted for steering . ( Max. Rotation is approx 45 degrees left & right. )

Edited by davef, Jan 24 2013 - 07:17 PM.

[Peter Dron]

When I first took the GPL disk out of its Pandora's Box, I think I was expecting something slightly simpler. I expect most people were, which is probably why it was not a commercial success. But some people are sufficiently obstinate to keep on trying...

It seems to me that there are at least five variables involved in how GPL performs (perhaps there are one or two I have not considered):

1) Hardware
2) Game Controller settings
3) Alterations to Core.ini settings
4) Changes to the chassis/transmission settings
5) Driving style

Adjustments to any one of these may have an effect on some of the others, for good or worse. I find it difficult to determine whether, when a change to one of those does not work, for me, whether that is because of personal preference or because of one of the other factors.

For example, I tried Repco Hitman's suggestion of 540deg of rotation/9.1 steering ratio and it just did not work for me. I felt the steering was too cumbersome and at the same time too reactive. Is that because of a clash with Game Controller settings or my latency settings in GEM+? Or is it because of my hardware (G25 wheel, Clubsport pedals)? Or is it a question of personal preference/driving style?

Incidentally, my preference is for around 340-350deg and 11:1.

[Bob Simpson]

You should use whatever ratio you like of course.

I can tell you that I use 540° and 9:1 and your ratio is the equivalent of 7:1 at that rotation, so a fair bit faster than mine (about 28% faster) - (345/540)*11=7

But your car's front wheels at full lock are only turning 15.7° while mine are turning 30° which is why I'd never use the smaller rotational range. (345/2)/11 = 15.7° versus (540/2)/9 = 30°  That could be a problem at very tight hairpins like at Monaco.

To get to a front wheel turning angle of 28.5° with 345° rotation, you'd have to go to 6:1 but that would be a responsiveness that's too fast to drive.  Or with 660° rotation and 6:1 (same speed of steering - (345/660)*11=5.75) you'd get 30°.  You'd just have to keep turning and turning the wheel to get there if you needed it for a tight hairpin.

Edited by Bob Simpson, Oct 02 2013 - 09:26 PM.

[Peter Dron]

Bob Simpson, on Oct 02 2013 - 07:17 PM, said:

You should use whatever ratio you like of course.

I can tell you that I use 540° and 9:1 and your ratio is the equivalent of 7:1 at that rotation, so a fair bit faster than mine (about 28% faster) - (345/540)*11=7

But your car's front wheels at full lock are only turning 15.7° while mine are turning 30° which is why I'd never use the smaller rotational range. (345/2)/11 = 15.7° versus (540/2)/9 = 30°  That could be a problem at very tight hairpins like at Monaco.

To get to a front wheel turning angle of 28.5° with 345° rotation, you'd have to go to 6:1 but that would be a responsiveness that's too fast to drive.  Or with 660° rotation and 6:1 (same speed of steering - (345/660)*11=5.75) you'd get 30°.  You'd just have to keep turning and turning the wheel to get there if you needed it for a tight hairpin.

That's interesting but I remember being told in the early 1970s that it was not possible for even Formula 3 cars to get through the Station Hairpin (or Loew's or whatever it had become by then) without a bit of assistance from the throttle.


[Edit] I tried 7:1 and found the responsiveness of that too frenetic. Then I tried 9:1, still with the same rotation. After making a few small suspension adjustments, I did a personal best at Mosport. Only by a tenth of a second, but a personal best is a personal best, even if it's only by a nanosecond.

I am not sure what this proves, if anything. Returning to my previous post, I think that to be consistent in GPL it is essential to find reasonably good hardware and then to find Game Controller and Core.ini settings that you are comfortable with - and that's really difficult, especially for those who are not computer experts. After that, everything else is refined tweaking and practice, practice, practice. On the other hand, there are people who do super-quick times using a keyboard...

Edited by Peter Dron, Oct 03 2013 - 11:20 AM.