12 replies to this topic

[Bounty]

Hi all,

First post, taken me 20mins to get this far, kept jumping back to the SRMZ forums lol

Anyway a couple of questions, probably aimed more at the developers but everybody is welcome to chip in.
Back in 2007 I used to race GTL in a league and the cars were given a credit value. You started the season with 10cr in the bank to buy your first car then each race you earned more credits with which to buy your car for the next race. The better you did in race the less credits your earned, so as well as giving a varied grid car wise it was also like a built in handicap system. It all worked very well.

Here is our old price list, (from GTL remember)

Class---- Car # --- Car Type----Cost
GTC-76--- 80, 84 Pantera------------ 9
GTC-76--- Any Porsche 911 RSR------- 8
GTC-76--- 89 Ford Capri------------- 7
GTC-76--- 30 Porsche 906------------ 7
GTC-76--- 870 BMW CSL--------------- 6
GTC-76--- 85 76 Corvette------------ 5
GTC-76--- Any Ford Escort----------- 5
GTC-76--- 850 76 Corvette----------- 4
GTC-76--- 87 BMW CSL---------------- 4
GTC-76--- 86 Pantera---------------- 3
GTC-76--- 872 Ford Capri------------ 2
GTC-76--- Any Porsche 914----------- 1

GTC-65--- Any Ford GT40------------- 15
GTC-65--- 859, 887 AC Shelby Cobra-- 10
GTC-65--- 873 AC Shelby Cobra------- 9
GTC-65--- Any TVR Griffith---------- 8
GTC-65--- Any Lotus Elan 26R-------- 7
GTC-65--- Any Shelby Daytona Coupe-- 7
GTC-65--- Any 65 Corvette----------- 7
GTC-65--- 851, 853 Jaguar E-type---- 6
GTC-65--- Any Ferrari 275 GTB/C----- 5
GTC-65--- Any Renault Apline A110--- 5
GTC-65--- Any Austin Healey 3000---- 4
GTC-65--- Any Shelby GT350---------- 3
GTC-65--- 820 Jaguar E-type--------- 2
GTC-65--- Any Mercedes 300SL-------- 2
GTC-65--- Any Lotus Elite----------- 1

TC-65---- Any Alfa Romeo GTA-------- 9
TC-65---- Any Lotus Cortina--------- 8
TC-65---- Any Ford Falcon----------- 7
TC-65---- Any Mini Cooper----------- 6
TC-65---- Any Ford Mustang---------- 5
TC-65---- Any Abarth 1000TC--------- 3
TC-65---- Any Jaguar MkII----------- 2


So with V3 of P&G coming out soon a how would you value the cars. Also how would you split them class wise. Engine size, year, sports/touring etc.
Working on the best cars max price in a class of 15cr. and worst in class 1cr.

Btw is there a complete list of the cars that are going to make into V3 yet?

[Bounty]

60+ views and no suggestions  
Oh well thanks anyway

[Aristotelis]

Not an easy thing to do, but let's try and we can also discuss about it and change it accordingly.
Could be a fun thread

Bounty, on Feb 01 2011 - 05:53 PM, said:

Hi all,

First post, taken me 20mins to get this far, kept jumping back to the SRMZ forums lol

Anyway a couple of questions, probably aimed more at the developers but everybody is welcome to chip in.
Back in 2007 I used to race GTL in a league and the cars were given a credit value. You started the season with 10cr in the bank to buy your first car then each race you earned more credits with which to buy your car for the next race. The better you did in race the less credits your earned, so as well as giving a varied grid car wise it was also like a built in handicap system. It all worked very well.

Here is our old price list, (from GTL remember)

I will try to change your list in more P&G order and in terms of racing performance (not actual costs). Maybe this can help you put "prices" then.


Class----  --- Car Type----Cost

70s GR.2  BMW CSL 3.5 24v IMSA-------- 14
70s GR.2  BMW CSL 3.5 24v--------------- 13
70s GR.2  Ford Capri RS3100-------------- 13
70s GR.4  Porsches 911 3.0 RSR---------- 12
70s GR.2  BMW CSL 3.3 12v--------------- 12
70s GR.4  Pantera 475 engine------------- 11
70s GR.4  Pantera 400 engine------------- 10
70s GR.4  Porsches 911 2.8 RSR---------- 10
70s GR.2  Ford Capri 2600RS-------------- 9
70s GR.4  Corvette C3 ---------------------- 8
70s GR.4  Pantera 300 engine------------- 8
70s GR.2  Ford Escort RS '72--------------- 8
70s GR.2  Ford Escort RS '71--------------- 7
70s GR.4  Porsche 914---------------------- 7
70s GR.2  Alfa Romeo GTAm--------------- 6
70s GR.2  Ford Escort TC '70--------------- 5
70s GR.2  Alfa Romeo GTAj----------------- 5


Now, those values are not absolute. They vary A LOT by the track choice and the driving style. Some cars are easier to push to the limit, while others are maybe faster but far more difficult and vice versa. Also a car might be good on qualifying but eat the tyres on races and also vice versa. The performances vary A LOT depending the situation.

For example we have a Corvette C3 with a monstrous engine, but unfortunately on "street" tyres. This car is amazing on long straights and acceleration, but suffers very much on turns... On the other hand a Ford Escort RS is non existant in comparisson of top speed and acceleration, but on a normal track, will probably eat alive the big Corvette because of it's agility and high grip... choices choices

Also most of the cars have multiple versions (in true Power&Glory style), so one might be a bit better than another depending on the version chosen.


I do not like blending 60s cars with 70s cars, especially because of the semislicks and slicks tyres the 70s cars use in comparison to the treaded 60s ones.

If you like what I did with the 70s cars, let me know and I'll continue on the 60s.

DISCLAIMER. The list is not final of the cars present in the v3. Cars may or may not appear in the mod when it will be released

[Bounty]

Woohoo a reply, and from one of the team members no less!  
Thank you Aristotelis your input is very much appreciated.

This is exactly the sort of information I'm after  

I'd prefer two classes of car so things don't get too complicated during the season. So with what is/maybe/could/might be going to get released in P&G V3, (and the after release additions), do you think it would be better to split the car classes by year rather than type or engine size?

Originally, (again in GTL), we raced the TC65 and GTC65 on alternate weeks, with the final race of the season being the GTC76's at somewhere like Spa. A big finish so to speak.

I see the differences even in P&G v2.1 between what at first glance look like the same car. So I'll have to go through every one of the specs eventually to figure out which ones need to be a bit more expensive.

The track does play a major part in car selection and how one spends their credits. Not much point in buying a GT40 if the track that week is Monza Junior You also have to figure out what tracks you are good on and how many credits you'll left for the next race. I've had to slow down and give up places before now otherwise I wouldn't have been able to afford the next car I wanted  

Can't wait to see your list of the 60's cars

Thanks again...

Edited by Bounty, Feb 03 2011 - 06:44 AM.

[Ade]

Heres a list we used for a token system over at SRouk.  

  

Tokens   Cars Available

  20......Porsche 906/8
  19......GT40 Gulf
  18......Porsche 911 RSR 3L
  17......Porsche 906/6, GT40 mk II
  16......GT40 mk I, Porsche 911 IROC
  15......Porsche 914/6, Shelby Cobra 427 Roadster
  14......Ferrari 275 GTB Speciale
  13......Shelby Daytona Coupe
  12......Lotus Elan, Chevrolet Corvette L88 Coupe (Penske)
  11......Shelby Cobra 289 Coupe (Willment)
  10......Shelby Cobra 289 Coupe (not Willment), Shelby GT-350R CASC
   9......Shelby Cobra 289 Roadster, Ferrari 275 GTB/C, Corvette L88 Roadster, E-Type Jag Lightweight
   8......GT350 SCCA, Corvette L72 Coupe, Falcon Weslakeheads, Mustang ATCC, Alfa Volumetrico
   7......E Type Jag Coupe, E Type Jag Roadster
   6......Ford Mustang Trans Am, Ford Falcon Mann, Chevrolet z06 Coupe
   5......Ferrari 250 C, Mustang NTK
   4......Alpine 1300, Alfa Romeo GTA
   3......Corvette L76 Roadster, Lotus Cortina Works
   2......Abarth 1000TC Gr5, TR4
   1......Lotus Elite, Ferrari 250 B, Mini Cooper 1275s
   0......Healey mk 2  

                        Hope this helps,cheers Ade

[Aristotelis]

I think it's always better to do splits based on the year. Similar years in P&G will also give you similar tyres, and tyres on those cars are still the most important factor of performance.

i.e. a '62 tyre will give much less grip than a 69 tyre, which in turn will give much less grip than a 73-75 slick tyre.
be careful though, from 72 and onwards the slicks tyre are great but also mean you need to stop to change tyres in case of rain...

[Bounty]

I suppose a lot will depend on what is released year wise as to how the split is made. Maybe keep the slick tyre cars as a third class like we did with the GTC76 or just add a premium to the credit cost.

Thanks you for your list Ade certainly give me more to think about.

[aSa]

Not being a "pro" sim racer and still giving a thought for this system: doesn't this favor too much those guys that are already faster than others (winning races would give you possibilities to "purchase" even faster cars)?  Should there be some kind of weight penalty applied too? Or time penalty, for winning races.. lol.

I have found rather interesting an idea where all the cars are grouped by performance into several groups (f.ex. group count could match the race count during one season).  Then you would have to preselect one car from each group and every picked car would have to be used only once.

cheers.. aSa C[_]

[Bounty]

If you are refering to the old GLT system we used aSa, it is quite the opposite. You earn 1 credit for winning, 2 of coming second, 3 for third etc. all the way to 10th place. Any position after 10th also earn 10 credits. So the better you do in race the less you earn so the "pro's" can only afford the slower cars. Makes for a very tight championship and gives the non-pro's a real chance.

[Tharnvi]

We are on the tenth season in the Swedish Historic GT league now. There have been two seasons per year since the release of GTL. We moved over to PnG before the release of PnG2 and are now waiting for the third installment of this wonderful mod.

During the first five seasons a system with credits and car values was used.

From season six the cars are divided in to new groups and ordered according to performance at the tracks that we will use that season. It's tricky job and we don't get it right every time.

After the two first races, normally one type races, we start allotting cars according to previous results. The best placed drivers in the previous race get the slowest cars and the back markers get the faster cars. We have special allotments for DNF and DNS also.

Here are our classes for this season:

SSR Grp1
1.Ferrari 250 GT-SWB Berlinetta
2.Alpine Renault A110 1100cc
3.Mini Cooper 1275S
4.Abarth TC1000 Gr5
5.Jaguar MkII 4.2l
6.Triumph TR4
7.Lotus Elite
8.Austin Healey 3000 MkII
9.Mini Cooper 970S
10.Abarth TC1000 Gr2
11.Austin Healey 3000 MkI
12.Ford Cortina GT

SSR Grp2
1.Alpine Renault A110 1300cc
2.Ford Mustang Trans-Am + BSCC Gr5
3.Ferrari 250 GT-SWB Competizione
4.Alfa Romeo 1600 GTA
5.Ford Mustang ATCC 65 #7
6.Jaguar E-Type Coupe/Roadster
7.Ford Mustang NTK-Gr5
8.Ford Mustang BSCC-Gr2
9.Ford Falcon Sprint
10.Ford Mustang ATCC 65 #4
11.Alfa Romeo 1300 GTA-Junior
12.Lotus Cortina GT

SSR Grp3
1.Lotus Elan 26R
2.Shelby GT350R CASC
3.Ford Mustang ATCC Gr5 66 #01
4.Jaguar E-Type Lightweight
5.Ferrari 275 GTB Competizione
6.Shelby GT350R SCCA
7.Ford Falcon Mann
8.Ford Falcon Weslake-heads
9.Alpine Renault A110 1300cc
10.Ferrari 250 GT-SWB Competizione
11.Alfa Romeo GTA Volumetrico
12.Chevrolet Corvette C2 L76 Roadster

SSR Grp4
1.Ford GT40 MkI 289ci
2.Shelby Cobra 427
3.Ferrari 275 GTB Speciale
4.Chevrolet Corvette C2 L88
5.Shelby Daytona
6.Chevrolet Corvette C2 L72 Coupe
7.Shelby Cobra 289 Coupe 64 #84
8.Shelby Cobra 289 Coupe
9.Shelby GT350R CASC
10.Shelby Cobra 289 Roadster
11.Chevrolet Corvette C2 Z06
12.Jaguar E-Type Lightweight

SSR Grp5
1.Porsche 906 Carrera 6/8
2.Porsche 906-E Carrera 6
3.Ford GT40 MkII 427ci
4.Porsche 906-LangHeck Carrera 6
5.Porsche 906 Carrera 6

If you don't like your car you can always go to a “slower” car on the list. You have also two wild cards to use any time during the season to go up the list to a “faster” car. Remember that our ranking is dependent on the tracks that we plan to use and that it isn't in any way fool proof.

[Bounty]

Finally made it back on to the forum  

Wow, a lot of work/thought has gone into that list Tharnvi. Would probably be a bit complex for our needs though.

Sounds like it requires quite a bit of management with the allocation of car group depending on where drivers finish etc. With our credit system drivers can choose what ever car they like, if they can afford it. Just the drivers that do well can't afford the better cars. Those that finish mid-low pack can. Sort of manages itself if you know what I mean.

Depending on what Aristotelis comes up with for the rest of the cars performance wise I expect we will go with 3 groups split by year. Probably something like:

Cars up to 1967
Cars from 68-72
Cars with slick tyres or maybe '72 onwards

Edited by Bounty, Feb 06 2011 - 05:10 AM.

[Bounty]

Any chance of seeing your list for the 60's Aristotelis? btw which of the ones on your 70's list use slick tyres?

[Tharnvi]

First race with group 1 is done at Keimola. A tr4 was fastest followed by one Elite, another TR4 and yet one Elite. In sixth we found a Healey MKII. Two Ferrari 250 (not the competition model) was on the grid. One of them suffered an engine failure and the other one struggled with grip due to a slight rainfall during the race.
If you like to examine lap times and positions from this and many other races with PnG you can visit our result site at sls.swedishsimracers.com. It's in mixed English and Swedish but I think that you will find you way around. If not, just ask.