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Chaparral 2D Gears Confusion


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#1 Remco Hitman - guest

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Posted Nov 16 2010 - 05:02 PM

Hi guys!

I hope someone can shed some light on the Chaparral gearboxes for me.
The Sports Cars' readme mentions both Chaparrals to have 3 forward gears, a distinct feature that I was more or less aware of.
However, the 2D in particular is known for using a 6-speed automatic gearbox. Ultimatecarpage notes this, for instance.
Was the 6-speed a later feature of the 2D?

A more GPL-specific problem is that H-shifters accidentally enable the use of 4th gear.
Since the known bug in the setup screen allows users to tweak 4th gear ratios, these cars acquire in effect 4-speed gearboxes!

I myself fell into this trap by mistake, clocking a stunning 2:41.50 at Sebring with the 2D. Using 4th.
Obviously, I have now recognised my mistake and deleted the time at GPLRank.
I wasn't too heart-broken since I still hold the WR with the Lola at this time ;)

Still, this is an issue perhaps rank admins and hopefully modders should look into.
I know that it's impossible to get the setup screen to show just the 3 forward gears, but hopefully there is a method of disabling this gear in the cars themselves?

This is not a mod-specific problem by the way. When I first started using my H-shifter I noticed how all cars in GPL actually have a 6th gear which cannot be engaged using a sequential gearchange.
For the 67's, this wasn't really an issue because that secret 6th gear was locked in an unusable tall ratio.
For the Chaparrals however, it is a problem because now an extra gear can be accessed and tweaked to gain a significant advantage.

Edited by Remco Hitman, Nov 16 2010 - 05:12 PM.


#2 Jhalli

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Posted Nov 16 2010 - 05:27 PM

interesting problem Remco  :lol:

i previously did 2.42 with only 3 gears so you not get advantage too much , at least i hope so :P

#3 Lee200

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Posted Nov 16 2010 - 05:31 PM

View PostRemco Hitman, on Nov 16 2010 - 05:02 PM, said:

Hi guys!

I hope someone can shed some light on the Chaparral gearboxes for me.
The Sports Cars' readme mentions both Chaparrals to have 3 forward gears, a distinct feature that I was more or less aware of.
However, the 2D in particular is known for using a 6-speed automatic gearbox. Ultimatecarpage notes this, for instance.
Was the 6-speed a later feature of the 2D?

A more GPL-specific problem is that H-shifters accidentally enable the use of 4th gear.
Since the known bug in the setup screen allows users to tweak 4th gear ratios, these cars acquire in effect 4-speed gearboxes!

I myself fell into this trap by mistake, clocking a stunning 2:41.50 at Sebring with the 2D. Using 4th.
Obviously, I have now recognised my mistake and deleted the time at GPLRank.
I wasn't too heart-broken since I still hold the WR with the Lola at this time ;)

Still, this is an issue perhaps rank admins and hopefully modders should look into.
I know that it's impossible to get the setup screen to show just the 3 forward gears, but hopefully there is a method of disabling this gear in the cars themselves?

This is not a mod-specific problem by the way. When I first started using my H-shifter I noticed how all cars in GPL actually have a 6th gear which cannot be engaged using a sequential gearchange.
For the 67's, this wasn't really an issue because that secret 6th gear was locked in an unusable tall ratio.
For the Chaparrals however, it is a problem because now an extra gear can be accessed and tweaked to gain a significant advantage.

As to the number of gears, the Ultimate Car Page is wrong.  The 2D and 2F only had 3 gears.  In 1966, the 2D raced with a 327 cubic inch engine and only 2 gears.  In 1967, it shared the same 427 engine and 3 speed gearbox with the 2F.

The physics are actually set with a 4th, 5th, and 6th gear ratio of 1.00, but also with only 3 gears.  So it's news to us that the H shifter can enable the 4th gear.  If we had known this was possible prior to releasing the mod, it probably would have been better to set the 4th through 6th gears with 0.00 as the gear ratios so that no torque would go through in those gears.

Right now, I don't see an easy quick fix without putting out a new set of physics.  Will look into doing that for v1.1.

:wave:

#4 Remco Hitman - guest

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Posted Nov 16 2010 - 05:42 PM

View PostLee200, on Nov 16 2010 - 05:31 PM, said:

As to the number of gears, the Ultimate Car Page is wrong.  The 2D and 2F only had 3 gears.  In 1966, the 2D raced with a 327 cubic inch engine and only 2 gears.  In 1967, it shared the same 427 engine and 3 speed gearbox with the 2F.

The physics are actually set with a 4th, 5th, and 6th gear ratio of 1.00, but also with only 3 gears.  So it's news to us that the H shifter can enable the 4th gear.  If we had known this was possible prior to releasing the mod, it probably would have been better to set the 4th through 6th gears with 0.00 as the gear ratios so that no torque would go through in those gears.

Right now, I don't see an easy quick fix without putting out a new set of physics.  Will look into doing that for v1.1.

:wave:


Cool, thanks for your reply. I guess that Chaparral laptimes will have to be accepted on a basis of trust until a possible V1.1 patch.
Come to think of it, I've never seen this bug mentioned for the other cars. It certainly isn't a well-known issue. Until now  :duh:

#5 Remco Hitman - guest

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Posted Nov 16 2010 - 05:44 PM

View PostJhalli, on Nov 16 2010 - 05:27 PM, said:

interesting problem Remco  :lol:

i previously did 2.42 with only 3 gears so you not get advantage too much , at least i hope so :P

That's quite the WR! Upload it quick :D

#6 Lee200

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Posted Nov 16 2010 - 05:49 PM

View PostRemco Hitman, on Nov 16 2010 - 05:42 PM, said:

Cool, thanks for your reply. I guess that Chaparral laptimes will have to be accepted on a basis of trust until a possible V1.1 patch.
Come to think of it, I've never seen this bug mentioned for the other cars. It certainly isn't a well-known issue. Until now  :duh:

Probably because this was the first mod that used only 3 gears on a car.

I can't comment on when a v1.1 update will be available and have no control GPL Rank; however, it may be that the GPL Rank gurus will not accept any world record times until after v1.1 is available and the use of 4 gears is eliminated.  Don't know, but just thinking out loud.

In theory, having 4 gears instead of 3 can result in faster times.

Right now, we can't eliminate the display of the 4th gear in the setup menu.  If the player can change that gear ratio at will, then there may not be a way to fix this.   :idunno:

Edited by Lee200, Nov 16 2010 - 05:52 PM.


#7 Remco Hitman - guest

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Posted Nov 16 2010 - 06:09 PM

View PostLee200, on Nov 16 2010 - 05:49 PM, said:


Right now, we can't eliminate the display of the 4th gear in the setup menu.  If the player can change that gear ratio at will, then there may not be a way to fix this.   :idunno:

You're right! Perhaps we ought to delete this thread altogether and pretend this never happened  :huh:

Edited by Remco Hitman, Nov 16 2010 - 06:16 PM.


#8 TvO - guest

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Posted Nov 16 2010 - 06:22 PM

View PostRemco Hitman, on Nov 16 2010 - 06:09 PM, said:

View PostLee200, on Nov 16 2010 - 05:49 PM, said:


Right now, we can't eliminate the display of the 4th gear in the setup menu.  If the player can change that gear ratio at will, then there may not be a way to fix this.   :idunno:

You're right! Perhaps we ought to delete this thread altogether and pretend this never happened  :huh:

Although when viewed another way, you could say that this encourages GPL'ers to drive with H-shifters from now on. I've tried it briefly since the G25 came with a shifter (actually bought it because of that hehe) but it's very difficult and I ended up with the compromise of using the sequential mode of the shifter. Better than a flappy pedal gearbox :D .

Ironically, The Chaparrals are the only cars where the real drivers actually shifted using a similar technique as sequential shifting with a stickshift in GPL.

:wave: Tommie.

#9 Border Reiver - guest

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Posted Nov 16 2010 - 06:23 PM

View PostLee200, on Nov 16 2010 - 05:49 PM, said:

....

In theory, having 4 gears instead of 3 can result in faster times.
...

Well, when we were sorting the handling on the Chaparrals and suspected the drive train/lack of gears/high inertia it certainly helped putting a five speed into it. :)

Thinking out loud here, is there any way that we can force 3rd and 4th to have the same ratio, like in the default setups we shipped, i.e. they are linked so that changing 3rd also changes 4th and vice versa? In that way you'd have a box with 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd and 3rd. :) Those with H shifters could grab any of a variety of 3rd gear gates, but, it would always then be the same ratio. That might be workable depending on how things can be linked in the setup pages.

As a side note, for those running H shifters in the Chaparrals, shouldn't they be running them in sequential mode in any case for true realism? I had a feeling the box was sequential and not gated, although I am sure that Lee will know.

Rob

Edited by Border Reiver, Nov 16 2010 - 06:25 PM.


#10 Phil

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Posted Nov 16 2010 - 06:43 PM

If a fix isn't possible, league admins & GPLRank can police this using Gear Change Analyser in GPLRA. For leagues, checking the fastest lap of each Chaparral driver should be sufficient, no great effort  :)

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#11 Dr Tooth

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Posted Nov 16 2010 - 08:03 PM

View PostPhil, on Nov 16 2010 - 06:43 PM, said:

If a fix isn't possible, league admins & GPLRank can police this using Gear Change Analyser in GPLRA. For leagues, checking the fastest lap of each Chaparral driver should be sufficient, no great effort  :)

Yes when it is time for a WR in the 67GT cars I´ll manage that :D

Dr Tooth :D

#12 Lee200

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Posted Nov 16 2010 - 08:46 PM

Hi Guys,

Good to hear the GPL Rank gurus can figure out how to handle this.   :thumbup:

Rob, yes I was thinking along the same lines that we could force, say, 0.00 as the gear ratios for 4 and above so the those gears wouldn't be effective.  I need to do some more research whether it is possible.  I don't think it possible to automatically link the gear ratios though.

I've read nothing to indicate whether the gearbox was sequential or not.  I've seen a photo of the 2F's gearshifter and it looks like it may have a gate which would mean it was nonsequential. :idunno:

#13 TvO - guest

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Posted Nov 16 2010 - 08:59 PM

View PostLee200, on Nov 16 2010 - 08:46 PM, said:

Hi Guys,

Good to hear the GPL Rank gurus can figure out how to handle this.   :thumbup:

Rob, yes I was thinking along the same lines that we could force, say, 0.00 as the gear ratios for 4 and above so the those gears wouldn't be effective.  I need to do some more research whether it is possible.  I don't think it possible to automatically link the gear ratios though.

I've read nothing to indicate whether the gearbox was sequential or not.  I've seen a photo of the 2F's gearshifter and it looks like it may have a gate which would mean it was nonsequential. :idunno:

I have been in touch with Jan who runs the website http://thechaparralfiles.com/ . He's given me pictures of the inside of both the 2D and 2F. He's given them to me though email so I won't post them just in case :idunno: . Anyhow on the 2D picture the stick leans to the upper right, indicating a H-pattern. On a picture of the 2F it's clearly visible that the gate has an H pattern. I'd imagine upper left being reverse, lower left being first gear, upper right being second gear and lower right being third gear.

:wave: Tommie.

#14 Lee200

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Posted Nov 16 2010 - 09:22 PM

Thanks Tommie, guess that settles it.

EDIT:

On a close look at my 2F cockpit photos, it's pretty obvious there is a shifter gate as Tommie says.  Case closed.

Edited by Lee200, Nov 16 2010 - 09:52 PM.


#15 Bob Simpson

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Posted Nov 16 2010 - 09:37 PM

View PostRemco Hitman, on Nov 16 2010 - 05:02 PM, said:

A more GPL-specific problem is that H-shifters accidentally enable the use of 4th gear.
Since the known bug in the setup screen allows users to tweak 4th gear ratios, these cars acquire in effect 4-speed gearboxes!

That is not the case with the G25 shifter using GPLShift.  There are only 3 gears available and going into the 4th slot, GPL reads "N" for the gear.  However, the AT and BT cars have 4 gears as all the cars share the same engine and transmission.  Obviously with that time you weren't in an Advanced or Basic Trainer.

Remco, you use the Act-Labs shifter utility don't you?




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