Jump to content


- - - - -

Test Mod Thoughts


  • Please log in to reply
90 replies to this topic

#1 brr

brr

    a GPL editor

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,244 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Sim interest:GPL

Posted Jul 21 2010 - 09:28 AM

Since I have various bits and pieces which update GPL physics, maybe it would make sense to make a test mod. Things which could be included right away are:
- simple tyre wear (including tyres temporarily losing some grip when going off track)
- brake fade
- pitstops

Some other stuff which is working but needs more or less tweaking:
- high resolution track surfaces
- sound system
- some tweaks to the tyre model

What does it take to turn something into a mod? Things I know about are changing laptime output from player.ini to plaxxx.ini, and changing a certain string in gpl.exe so it does not refer to 67 (won't go into too much detail here).

If a physics hack collection is made available as a mod, I don't see any risk that is different from having available mods which run faster than original 67.

#2 FloP

FloP

    Denny Hulme

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 602 posts
  • Location:Rödermark
  • Sim interest:GPL

Posted Jul 21 2010 - 10:11 AM

What you're achieving is absolutely incredible! I've said it before and I'll say it again: Keep up the great work, brr! :notworthy:

#3 Akseli - guest

Akseli - guest
  • Guests

Posted Jul 21 2010 - 11:04 AM

All what it needs is correct driver photos and correct cooper dash texture. And realistic AI too!

#4 Phil

Phil

    Tazio Nuvolari

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 223 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Interests:I have no preference
  • Sim interest:I have no preference

Posted Jul 21 2010 - 11:31 AM

Sounds great brr.

Does brake fade increase with bad driving, e.g. throttle under braking?

And what changes to tyre model have you made? Smaller optimum slip angle?

#5 brr

brr

    a GPL editor

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,244 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Sim interest:GPL

Posted Jul 21 2010 - 11:42 AM

View PostPhil, on Jul 21 2010 - 11:31 AM, said:

Sounds great brr.

Does brake fade increase with bad driving, e.g. throttle under braking?

Brakes should heat in that case more than usual. The model is somewhat simple in the way it calculates the heat energy entering the brakes, but its not very critical to driving feel so it might be good enough. There is also a "memory" aspect to it, brake surface and the rest of the brake is modeled separately with heat flow between them so there is a possibility of heat buildup with aggressive driving (and cooling when taking it easier).

Quote

And what changes to tyre model have you made? Smaller optimum slip angle?

At the moment a small adjustment to grip as a function of speed, increasing it at low speed. I've tested modding the slip curve and it makes a nice difference, but there are other things which need to be changed accordingly to keep things consistent. Needs a bit more research to get it right.

#6 John Woods

John Woods

    Be Somebody

  • GPLLinks Team
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,018 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Too Much Fun
  • Sim interest:GPL

Posted Jul 21 2010 - 07:30 PM

brr, you are a dangerous man. Posted Image
Now it seems things were a lot less risky when all you were talking about was DX11.
I think it's a great idea, but it should be called something like "WackyDontUseItCatHairCheeseMod" because if it was called something cool like "GPL Prototype Mod" everyone would want to use it.
What is the difference between a dedicated testing mod and just releasing components to a beta team? Would a testing mod have built in data recovery? Also, would a "better" tire model, for instance, make a car faster, slower, or make a driver more aware of a more "realistic" effect? Would it just be for 67s, or have to be a different version for each of the current Mods?
Anyway, sounds like fun. Let me know if I can help, maybe be a "test pilot" when you're ready.

#7 jgf

jgf

    Denny Hulme

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 697 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Columbus, OH
  • Sim interest:GPL and P&G

Posted Jul 21 2010 - 09:54 PM

Clear up the sound issues and dinner is on me - whenever you're in town.

#8 brr

brr

    a GPL editor

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,244 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Sim interest:GPL

Posted Jul 22 2010 - 12:58 AM

View PostJohn Woods, on Jul 21 2010 - 07:30 PM, said:

brr, you are a dangerous man. Posted Image
Now it seems things were a lot less risky when all you were talking about was DX11.
I think it's a great idea, but it should be called something like "WackyDontUseItCatHairCheeseMod" because if it was called something cool like "GPL Prototype Mod" everyone would want to use it.
What is the difference between a dedicated testing mod and just releasing components to a beta team? Would a testing mod have built in data recovery? Also, would a "better" tire model, for instance, make a car faster, slower, or make a driver more aware of a more "realistic" effect? Would it just be for 67s, or have to be a different version for each of the current Mods?
Anyway, sounds like fun. Let me know if I can help, maybe be a "test pilot" when you're ready.

The idea of a "test mod" is simply that everyone who wants to can test it. I don't see any harm in this, but that's why I asked in the first place: point out any possible risks which I might be unaware of. As for being just for 67, this is a mod and as such is separate from other mods as well as 67. The tire model changes are minor, mainly tweaking some parameters.

#9 Iestyn16

Iestyn16

    Tom Pryce

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 242 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Liverpool, UK
  • Interests:Sports, Music
  • Sim interest:GPL

Posted Jul 22 2010 - 01:33 AM

Sounds very interesting!  :D

#10 Burnsy865

Burnsy865

    Denny Hulme

  • Supporter
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,835 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Brisbane, Australia
  • Sim interest:GPL and P&G

Posted Jul 22 2010 - 01:54 AM

:woohoo2:  Sounds great.

#11 Stefan Roess

Stefan Roess

    Denny Hulme

  • GPLLinks Team
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,528 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Bavaria, Germany
  • Interests:racing :)
  • Sim interest:GPL and P&G

Posted Jul 22 2010 - 02:58 AM

I prefer final mods for GPL.

There are other sims that release beta mods, e.g. v0.8. Two weeks later you get a beta update for a beta mod, upgrading to v0.9, 3 weeks later v0.9.2 and so on and on. Hard to keep up with updating your sim and you are not sure, that everyone is using the latest version. Additonally you might get mismatches online.

But back to GPL.
I can see the point, that you will get many people testing and giving feedback, for further improvments, but I am rather old fashioned on this subject, as we have done it over the years developing GPL mods. Have a certain group of beta tester and release a quality mod when it is final (well as final as it can get). That is what GPL is well known for and appreciated.

I hope you don`t get me wrong, I really appreciate your work for GPL!
But I would rather see this all developed inside and released when it is finished. Same goes for the 60 fps mod. But that has been discussed before, as far as I remember.

Just my two cents. But I guess it is more up to the real modding guys (I am just a beta tester) around here to comment on this.

Cheers
Stefan

:2c:

Edited by Stefan Roess, Jul 22 2010 - 02:59 AM.


#12 brr

brr

    a GPL editor

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,244 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Sim interest:GPL

Posted Jul 22 2010 - 03:12 AM

View PostStefan Roess, on Jul 22 2010 - 02:58 AM, said:

I prefer final mods for GPL.

There are other sims that release beta mods, e.g. v0.8. Two weeks later you get a beta update for a beta mod, upgrading to v0.9, 3 weeks later v0.9.2 and so on and on. Hard to keep up with updating your sim and you are not sure, that everyone is using the latest version. Additonally you might get mismatches online.

But back to GPL.
I can see the point, that you will get many people testing and giving feedback, for further improvments, but I am rather old fashioned on this subject, as we have done it over the years developing GPL mods. Have a certain group of beta tester and release a quality mod when it is final (well as final as it can get). That is what GPL is well known for and appreciated.

The test mod will be forever a test mod. If/when things have developed far enough, a proper mod is branched out and released using a different mod identifier. Those who don't want to use or test unfinished work can simply wait for the branching. Online compatibility is relatively easy to do using the same technique as in 60fpsv2. Also, the mod will be 60fps only so there are no fps compatibility problems either.

About having open testing vs a small group (I would argue that open testing also means a somewhat small group of testers), what are the actual problems with the former? Your preference for the latter must be based on something.

#13 Stefan Roess

Stefan Roess

    Denny Hulme

  • GPLLinks Team
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,528 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Bavaria, Germany
  • Interests:racing :)
  • Sim interest:GPL and P&G

Posted Jul 22 2010 - 06:06 AM

@brr:
Ah, I thought the test mod should be turned into a final mod at some day in the future.
But keeping the test mod in test state forever and benefit of it`s development results for mod in progress or future mods is a good way I think.

My preference was based on the assumptions about turning it into a final mod.

I am looking forward for the first beta version of the beta test mod now :)

#14 John Woods

John Woods

    Be Somebody

  • GPLLinks Team
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,018 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Too Much Fun
  • Sim interest:GPL

Posted Jul 22 2010 - 10:09 AM

Still I am thinking what's the difference: (1) no difference in special test mod and use any of already existing mods, (?), (I would recommend patched 67s due to my vested interest, and brr, you are welcome to release it all today), and (2), I agree it is likely there would be no difference in community interest and support whether open testing or by invitation only small group. Those that want to participate will, even if it means suffering a series of revisions. I think the issue is contamination versus "normalization throughout the community," so anyone participating could necessarily create a special install of Grand Prix Legends just for testing, (as many users already have), and use a dedicated install for other purposes such as racing online.
Maybe a test mod would provide menu screen enhanced telemetry and setup optimization coefficients? (What I meant earlier by "data recovery"). Or only run in Training mode?
Doesn't "test mod" imply enhanced capacity to create experiments, convenience of use, with better, more detailed results and output in a very usable integrated format? Or something else?

Edited by John Woods, Jul 22 2010 - 10:17 AM.


#15 brr

brr

    a GPL editor

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,244 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Sim interest:GPL

Posted Jul 22 2010 - 10:26 AM

View PostJohn Woods, on Jul 22 2010 - 10:09 AM, said:

Still I am thinking what's the difference: (1) no difference in special test mod and use any of already existing mods, (?), (I would recommend patched 67s due to my vested interest, and brr, you are welcome to release it all today), and (2), I agree it is likely there would be no difference in community interest and support whether open testing or by invitation only small group. Those that want to participate will, even if it means suffering a series of revisions. I think the issue is contamination versus "normalization throughout the community," so anyone participating could necessarily create a special install of Grand Prix Legends just for testing, (as many users already have), and use a dedicated install for other purposes such as racing online.

I probably did not understand even half of it, but the test mod is intended to be just like any mod. There should not be any need to create separate installs for each mod. Racing online is one of the main purposes of simracing for me, so the test mod will work online from the beginning.

Quote

Maybe a test mod would provide menu screen enhanced telemetry and setup optimization coefficients? (What I meant earlier by "data recovery"). Or only run in Training mode?
No to all counts.

Quote

Doesn't "test mod" imply enhanced capacity to create experiments, convenience of use, with better, more detailed results and output in a very usable integrated format? Or something else?

Test mod implies its not finished and will evolve.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

Sim Racing Links