27 replies to this topic

[tobodestroyer]

Hi,

I've just discovered GTR2, GTL and now the P&G mod after 11 years of GPL and nothing else. I LOVE GTL (having spent two hours with it) but which should I devote the next 11 years to; P&G or GTL?

Are there pro's and cons for each? I assume P&G came about as it is an improved GTL. Am I correct?

I appreciate your thoughts on this one.

Tobo

[dangermouse]

tobodestroyer, on Feb 02 2010 - 01:18 PM, said:

but which should I devote the next 11 years to; P&G or GTL?

GPL and P&G!!

P&G gives you the old classics as they were (ie radial ply - not steel belt tires) and is very enjoyable. Try it, you'll like it!

[Art-J]

Well, as you have probably noticed, GTL tries to represent cars which competed in FIA Historic Championship races roughly from seasons 2004-2006, and it does the job pretty well. However, that means you drive the virtual representations of todays restored vehicles, with modern paintjobs and cockpit modifications (rollcages, electronic stopwatches etc.), plus a bit "modernized" suspension and slightly better tyre compounds (David Wright can shed more light on FIA regulations here!). P&G guys (with Mr Wright amongst them) decided to create mod based on highly rebuilt GTL 3D models, but with both visuals and physics resembling original cars from 1960s and '70s. Historical paintjobs and cockpits, more "jelly" suspension, slightly less grip and so on...

So, there You go, If You are one of GPLers who seek for the best representation on history (within allowable limitations, of course), I'd suggest sticking with P&G in longer run. The only problem with it is current lack of GTL-converted cars from mid '70s, not for long though, because the team has been working on the third and the last part of the mod, which will feature these as well.

Cheers - Art

[Burnsy865]

The problem is that they are all good. I love GTR2 and do play GTL sometimes but I can't tear myself away from GPL & P&G. Play them all and make up your own mind, you won't be too dissapointed in any of them.

[DucFreak]

tobodestroyer, on Feb 02 2010 - 01:18 PM, said:

Hi,

I've just discovered GTR2, GTL and now the P&G mod after 11 years of GPL and nothing else. I LOVE GTL (having spent two hours with it) but which should I devote the next 11 years to; P&G or GTL?

Are there pro's and cons for each? I assume P&G came about as it is an improved GTL. Am I correct?

I appreciate your thoughts on this one.

Tobo

I hope you're not the type that sleeps while reading, because I sure like to type a lot...   (beware the long reading!)

The questions you ask only you can answer for yourself. ...but then I do think you can live happily with all of them! hehe


The GTLW mod team is constituted by modders from various fronts, some from different backgrounds and all have their title past preferences, many (most?) do come from GPL and GTL background, and as long-time users, so we definitely know the qualities of each title (GPL and GTL are still fantastic) and we do know where P&G does have its place compared to those.


First, I better make a point where GTL and P&G are different (very), in concept and in content/aproach...

It was said already that GTL recreates the FIA Historic Championship races (AKA "modern historicals") roughly from seasons 2004-2006 (plenty cars missing though), whereas P&G recreates the same cars but as they were back in their glory days of the 60's and 70's decades, with plenty more different versions (plus some other new cars we're including), all with the different hardware they had then (and for each unique car, if and when applicable).

...we can get that has the main "big" difference in concepts then.


Still in the concepts/aproach thing... I would like to make one thing clear, and this isn't usually commented, but I feel it's important:

GTL is a simulation, definitely aimed at the more serious player but, as any commercial title, it also needed to be "slightly dumbed down" to fit in slightly different segments of "racing-gaming" market where it belongs, so the levels of damage in GTL are a major minus ...which means, racecars in GTL are super (no, make it mega!) reliable, and also extremely safe and "stiff" if crashing, like they never could have been.

...the levels of damage are one thing anyone will really notice, in an accident, and in over-driving, once in P&G... this is one point where an "ocasional" GTL driver may eat some "humble pie", as the cars in P&G will definitely break if you do not treat them right... over-drive them, and you may get what you asked for(!).
...over revving, over sliding (burnouts), over braking... very bad idea if you plan to finish a longer race!
All this was fine tuned and implemented to no end as it should be in a simulation, so the engine, brakes and tire wear will behave and react accordingly not only to their specs (based on data) but also -definitely- to your driving! (REMEMBER THAT!)




Now onto the technicall parts...

You strip both GTL and P&G and the "visual basing" on the 3D models is pretty much all that is in common between GTL and P&G in the end.

Most cars had to be modified 3D and texture wise (some immensely, some not so much) to become what they were once, externally and internally (widely modified chassis and cockpits, etc)... there's a huge background work from the researchers, 2D and 3D artists have a brutal task of getting the details right as possible (really, people that don't know the old cars most likely wouldn't imagine when looking at the end product!).
...you'll definitely notice this if your the type of person that likes to pay attention to detail and accuracy.


You have completely new physics in P&G (which are not only correct to specific data of the real cars, but -IMHO- infinitely more refined than anything made in ISI game-engine so far), which are a real delight to explore, since each single car will behave according to specs and "extras" (something like "what you see is what you get", physics wise).
This will make a very tasty and long lasting experience because of that, more so if you plan to change and create individual setups...
Much more than in GTL, I keep finding "a new toy" to explore everytime I take my time to dedicate to one single car, even inside the list of cars of same model!


You also have completely new sounds... they're all completely new and exclusive to P&G (i.e, we're not using any sounds of GTL or any other sim), and they are as accurate as the carefully collected and selected recordings let us do it.
This is my main task inside the team, so, regarding the sounds, I can personally assure you'll find 100% accurate sounds on most cars (oh yes!).
...a few of them will have "compromised sounds" alright, but even those will sound extremely close to what they do IRL (that's the purpose afterall).
I'm giggling alone here because some of the upcoming racecars in P&G v3.0 have really peculiar "own character" sounds in real life and I'm certain that was well translated into the game counterparts from the real recordings used, so I'm dying to see the faces of the "fanatics" when listening to those! (muhaha!)


Then there's the small/big details to make it more enjoyable, like the dedicate USER INTERFACE.
Since it is a mod that is to be installed as standalone, it's supposed to "feel" like a separate new simulation title, i.e., a new game based on GTR2 game engine!
We even had guys on their bands doing some "instrumental covers" especially for P&G... it doesn't get better than this!  
Each car, in the showroom, has a "button" so you can see the specs and... the history of the model! ...so this makes an interesting suplement of knowledge for someone that doesn't know much about the car itself.

It's all the little things placed on it that make the whole thing so special, I really believe.



I started my life in sims with GPL.
Sure, I flirted with other sims now and then (who didn't?), but I always would comeback to it because I loved the atmosphere of GPL (still do).
Most of all, I like the old timers, and as they were then, that became more apparent when GPLEA and all the other fantastic GPL modders started releasing add-ons that would make my jaw drop once testing their work, in a way no commercial product could ever do.

...GTL was a magnificent experience, more than any other sim, after GPL (I admitedly prefer tin-tops), but I would only get that same old feeling again of "little boy in a toy-shop" with the guys of GTLW, when I got in the team producing/developping P&G.

For me it's a mix of encyclopedia/museum of racecars from a golden era of motorsport, made by those that do care for these cars and dream on doing them for a simulation, as good as they can be.
If you like these cars, you'll find other nice titles and mods that may also "float your boat", but I really, really doubt you will find them made with the same sick affection and detail these guys dedicate to it.

P&G may work and fit some better than others, but when it does... heck, it sure does! HAHA

Edited by DucFreak, Feb 03 2010 - 07:05 AM.

[Tharnvi]

DucFreak, on Feb 02 2010 - 08:55 PM, said:

P&G... it doesn't get better than this!  

That’s right!
I also started my sim-career in GPL and drove GTL in national and international leagues for some years. Now I rate P&G as the premier sim, even compared to newcomers like iRacing. Physics, sounds, models and textures adds up to a very immersing experience and the FFB is fantastic if you manage to set up the parameters in GTR2 to your liking.

[tobodestroyer]

DucFreak,

Thanks for taking the time (probably lots of it) to reply in such detail. I think I'm sold - P&G sounds like where I want to be; a TRUE simulation. My sim racing time is very limited nowadays with the arrival of my two children so I need to know that when I do boot up the PC, start a sim and settle down to race that I'm not missing out on something better. You've convinced me that P&G is the way to go

IRL I own a Hillman Imp - is there one in P&G? Tell me yes and I'll quit work, sell the children, rent out the house and devote my entire life to P&G.

I can't wait to hear the sounds you've lovingly included. I'm a musician and teacher of music technology so I really appreciate your craft. I even drive a 5-cylinder Audi IRL just so that I can hear the glorious flutter of the turbo-charged 5-pot.  

Life is good...

[DucFreak]

tobodestroyer, on Feb 03 2010 - 03:05 AM, said:

DucFreak,

Thanks for taking the time (probably lots of it) to reply in such detail. I think I'm sold - P&G sounds like where I want to be; a TRUE simulation. My sim racing time is very limited nowadays with the arrival of my two children so I need to know that when I do boot up the PC, start a sim and settle down to race that I'm not missing out on something better. You've convinced me that P&G is the way to go

IRL I own a Hillman Imp - is there one in P&G? Tell me yes and I'll quit work, sell the children, rent out the house and devote my entire life to P&G.

I can't wait to hear the sounds you've lovingly included. I'm a musician and teacher of music technology so I really appreciate your craft. I even drive a 5-cylinder Audi IRL just so that I can hear the glorious flutter of the turbo-charged 5-pot.  

Life is good...

I love my modding "craft", yet sometimes it can be a harsh and ungratefull one... you spend weeks (months?) researching for the right recording, and when you finally got a decent one, and all done with sounds implemented in game, mod/title released, etc, another better one comes up to haunt your thoughts all over again later... then there's real life and no time to redo it... and when there is... *REPEAT THE STORY AD INFINITUM*   *eek*

I would love a Hillman Imp in P&G! ...although it is not planned for v3.0 (so far), maybe later it can be released, who knows?

I think you'll enjoy P&G a lot, so try it even if just for the kicks.
Current version is v2.0 + patch 2.1 (note, v3.0 will come later with plenty more cars, including the missing ones from the 70's - my personal favorites).

...even if in the end it doesn't detrone any favorite title of yours (carefull, it might! ), it sure will make you pass some really enjoyable hours over it, on and on.  

Edited by DucFreak, Feb 03 2010 - 05:24 PM.

[David Wright Lo67]

Art-J, on Feb 02 2010 - 02:10 PM, said:

Well, as you have probably noticed, GTL tries to represent cars which competed in FIA Historic Championship races roughly from seasons 2004-2006, and it does the job pretty well. However, that means you drive the virtual representations of todays restored vehicles, with modern paintjobs and cockpit modifications (rollcages, electronic stopwatches etc.), plus a bit "modernized" suspension and slightly better tyre compounds (David Wright can shed more light on FIA regulations here!).

Sorry for the late reply - haven't checked the forum for a few days.

The myth about modern radial tyres seems to be tough one to kill

The TC65 and GTC65 cars use Dunlop Vintage tyres, made in the same moulds as the 60s tyres with the same construction i.e. crossply.  The compound isn't exactly the same but it does date to the late 60s (its not modern) and the intention was to reproduce the general grip levels of the original mid-60s compound.  The problem for the TC76 and GCT76 cars is no one makes "historic" slicks.  So they do use modern slicks which are the same size as the 70s originals and the grip is lower than the slicks used in GTR2 for example.  Most use cross-ply slicks, a few use radial slicks, but radial slicks were in use in the 70s.

The main difference between the historic racing cars and their 60s/70s equivalent is probably suspension stiffness.  They race today to essentially the same regulations as in the 60s/70s but these regulations always allowed free choice of spring stiffness and todays racers make use of this running much stiffer suspension.  So you won't see the Lotus Cortina roll massively and lift its inside front wheel like it did in the 60s.  But while they are stiffer than in the 60s they are still much softer than "modern" GT and touring cars.

OK - on to the original question.  Duc has given a great description of P&G so I won't go into this again.  I certainly recommend P&G.  However I will explain why I still run GTL as well as P&G.

I'm mainly an off-line racer - indeed I haven't raced on-line for ages.  P&G is still a work in progress as far as AI is concerned while GTL works brilliantly as an off-line "package" which includes a great career mode.  The other weakness with P&G is the lack of quality period tracks.  There are a number of tracks converted from GPL which I very much enjoy racing on but there is no denying they are not modelled to the same standard as the tracks in GTL.  I know the "modern" tracks in GTL put off many GPLers but I'm quite happy to race the GTL cars on the modern tracks as those are the tracks they race on.  What I find more offputting is racing the P&G cars on modern tracks.  Isn't it wierd how your mind works

Edited by David Wright Lo67, Feb 07 2010 - 06:04 AM.

[Stefan Roess]

Hi guys,

nice read DucFreak. Thx for taking the time for the long post.

I rarely race offline. When I race offline I only do it for setting up my setup or to learn a new track, in case there is no server online to practice.

My favourite is still GPL after so many years. Most of my available spare time I spend on GPL. Doing administration of GPLRACER league and participate in league races (65, 66, 69 mods). Besides I do beta testing for GPL mods in development.

I also do like GTL very much. Whenever I have some spare time I race online on the altbierbude servers. I had some nice and fair short races there.

I would love to do more P&G racing as it is my favourite sim/mod besides GPL. It really got me hooked, when I first tested it, so that I hardly could stop racing it offline, although I rather love to race online, as said before. If the day would have 48 hours I would love to participate regularly in a P&G online league, as it is a great mod imo.

Can someone please develop a "real life 48 hour mod"     

Cheers
Stefan

Edited by Stefan Roess, Feb 12 2010 - 09:41 AM.

[Daveyraveygravey]

Like most here, I started on GPL.  I dabbled with GTR and GTR2 for a time, but when GTL came out I was hooked on that.  

However, P&G has replaced the lot.  I sometimes run GTR2 because I do like a Lambo (!) but you have to un-learn the cornering grip when you go back to no aero, and GTL is hardly ever started now.  P&G is just the best and we still haven't had all of it yet!

[DucFreak]

David Wright Lo67, on Feb 07 2010 - 06:01 AM, said:

Art-J, on Feb 02 2010 - 02:10 PM, said:

Well, as you have probably noticed, GTL tries to represent cars which competed in FIA Historic Championship races roughly from seasons 2004-2006, and it does the job pretty well. However, that means you drive the virtual representations of todays restored vehicles, with modern paintjobs and cockpit modifications (rollcages, electronic stopwatches etc.), plus a bit "modernized" suspension and slightly better tyre compounds (David Wright can shed more light on FIA regulations here!).

Sorry for the late reply - haven't checked the forum for a few days.

The myth about modern radial tyres seems to be tough one to kill

The TC65 and GTC65 cars use Dunlop Vintage tyres, made in the same moulds as the 60s tyres with the same construction i.e. crossply.  The compound isn't exactly the same but it does date to the late 60s (its not modern) and the intention was to reproduce the general grip levels of the original mid-60s compound.  The problem for the TC76 and GCT76 cars is no one makes "historic" slicks.  So they do use modern slicks which are the same size as the 70s originals and the grip is lower than the slicks used in GTR2 for example.  Most use cross-ply slicks, a few use radial slicks, but radial slicks were in use in the 70s.

The main difference between the historic racing cars and their 60s/70s equivalent is probably suspension stiffness.  They race today to essentially the same regulations as in the 60s/70s but these regulations always allowed free choice of spring stiffness and todays racers make use of this running much stiffer suspension.  So you won't see the Lotus Cortina roll massively and lift its inside front wheel like it did in the 60s.  But while they are stiffer than in the 60s they are still much softer than "modern" GT and touring cars.

OK - on to the original question.  Duc has given a great description of P&G so I won't go into this again.  I certainly recommend P&G.  However I will explain why I still run GTL as well as P&G.

I'm mainly an off-line racer - indeed I haven't raced on-line for ages.  P&G is still a work in progress as far as AI is concerned while GTL works brilliantly as an off-line "package" which includes a great career mode.  The other weakness with P&G is the lack of quality period tracks.  There are a number of tracks converted from GPL which I very much enjoy racing on but there is no denying they are not modelled to the same standard as the tracks in GTL.  I know the "modern" tracks in GTL put off many GPLers but I'm quite happy to race the GTL cars on the modern tracks as those are the tracks they race on.  What I find more offputting is racing the P&G cars on modern tracks.  Isn't it wierd how your mind works

Yes, but there are many more differences from the old to modern equivalents than the tyres (or what our eyes meet from the outside), David.

The rollcages, better suspensions and new parts make a HUGE difference.
The original design of parts (in most "historical champs") is mandatory but the construction seems to be "free" regarding usage of "modern materials" AFAIK (even titanium is now used many times... oh yes!) - at least here it seems.

The 60's cars are completely transformed after the rollcages are added (MUCH stiffer, ridigity added) and the brakes and suspension are improved immensely, same thing to some components that can be bettered for overall reliability, so that -for instantes- the engine can be used much, much more agressively.

The 70's cars already had rollcages then, but the components now are improved as long as your wallet can allow to go exploit the regulations, added with slicks that -at least here in Portugal- are described as supper-dupper-grippy, similar design but better components for temperatures VS durability, added to the mentioned better suspensions, brakes and many other components...

Here in Portugal -among other classic racers- we have a 911RSR and two Escort-RS that appear in GTL (so they ran in FIA historicals then), you wouldn't imagine how much preparation and fine tuning goes into those cars, in every front... they can get to be a very different animal (and just as vicious) compared to "back in the day" versions.

Not sure how Goodwood F.O.S. goes further than FIA for "historical limits", but the international champs have FIA trying to implement, then improve regulations and demands that everybody should follow to maintain the strict origins of the racecar, also to lower the costs for everybody... problem is, sometimes it almost looks like only the sound dB limit seems to be respected (and even that is discusseable), it's just an old gossip but they seem to close eyes really many times, for not loosing many contenders and participants that run over "passion" (and deep pockets), not big sponsorship, so they can keep the grids filled.
...you even get "tuned" replicas to be raced in sanctionized races, now how's that for "historical accuracy"?

The most important part (IMHO) is about older drivers comments (ones that can still be quick on them anyway), listening to their comments, after driving the modern equiped versions... plenty seem to agree that these racecars are now faster while quite a bit saffer (and grippier) and still interesting, but the balance (for drifting/trail-braking/throtle-steering) and some of the original character seems to be somewhat lost with the modern touches, the driving is regarded as completely different in many of them...


True that Power&Glory misses the tracks (lots of nice 60's&70's ones are downloadable as add-ons though) and the AI is still in need of improvements (let's see if Aris and VonDutch can improve it as suspected for v3.0), but the main thing (IMHO) is the driving experience of these cars (plus some other nuances that GTL largely missed IMO), no matter what tracks you can run them... it has been all about the cars, those are the stars!

Each to their own I guess...  

I think my tastes are enhanced and really biased by the product of my own participation on the project (no doubt), but, for me, GTL as mighty fine as it is, knowing how much goes into the P&G project, knowing (or so I want to think) how these cars really sound, and suspecting how much the producers of GTL had to "shortcut" to do the final product (no further comments on this), makes me look no further for a simulation of these cars (older originals please!) than -you guessed it- Power&Glory.

Edited by DucFreak, Feb 19 2010 - 10:17 PM.

[David Wright Lo67]

DucFreak, on Feb 19 2010 - 09:28 PM, said:

Yes, but there are many more differences from the old to modern equivalents than the tyres (or what our eyes meet from the outside), David.

The rollcages, better suspensions and new parts make a HUGE difference.
The original design of parts (in most "historical champs") is mandatory but the construction seems to be "free" regarding usage of "modern materials" AFAIK (even titanium is now used many times... oh yes!) - at least here it seems.

The 60's cars are completely transformed after the rollcages are added (MUCH stiffer, ridigity added) and the brakes and suspension are improved immensely, same thing to some components that can be bettered for overall reliability, so that -for instantes- the engine can be used much, much more agressively.

I think we've had this conversation before   In line with the original topic, I'm comparing GTL and P&G, not historic motor racing and the 60s/70s counterpart.

Stiffer chassis/rollcages/"modern" suspension has no effect in sim terms, because the physics engine doesn't model them

[DucFreak]

David Wright Lo67, on Feb 20 2010 - 08:10 AM, said:

I think we've had this conversation before   In line with the original topic, I'm comparing GTL and P&G, not historic motor racing and the 60s/70s counterpart.

Stiffer chassis/rollcages/"modern" suspension has no effect in sim terms, because the physics engine doesn't model them

Yes, we did. LOL ..and Aris did reply to you about the "GTL vs P&G chassis stiffness" that you mentioned then as well, quoting:

Aristotelis, on 29 November 09, 18:11, said:

David Wright, on 29 November 09, 17:07, said:

And of course roll cages stiffen chassis but in simulation terms the chassis in GTL and P&G are perfectly stiff.  We can't simulate chassis stiffness.

In a very subtle way we can with a trick.
As you said David it is not proper chassis simulation as the engine does not really simulate this. But with a little trick (although again I repeat it is subtle) we can "force" the user to not use too stiff suspension because it will create a wobble handling and not the best results.

It is already in on some cars in P&G2.1 and I'm trying to simulate it on more cars in P&G3.0

During P&Gv2.0 development, I did applaud the improved physics for a much superior feeling of wheight transfer, steering and overall reaction of most cars to Aris, when he did confess usage of some "magic potion" (or trick) to achieve chassis torsion emulation, that it is a factor on this.

Seems important for what we're doing since many of the cars in P&G (60's originals) don't use a rollcage and are -fact- known to "twist" the chassis... this wasn't used before in any ISI sim or mod untill now, AFAIK.

After noticing it, I too am a believer of what he is doing regarding this area.

Edited by DucFreak, Feb 20 2010 - 01:44 PM.

[David Wright Lo67]

Now we have wandered a bit off topic - I found this article in a subscribers supplement to the current Octane magazine on Minis in historic racing interesting.

Attached Files

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•  hist mini2.jpg   284.48K   33 downloads