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Revs / Power Bands, Etc


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#41 Pete Gaimari

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Posted Sep 02 2015 - 10:02 PM

I agree. Another way to kill it is downshifting too early. That will force it way past an rpm you could get under power.

#42 John Woods

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Posted Sep 03 2015 - 07:24 AM

Seems the Lotus limiter trips around 9400rpm?

Been criticised in the past for speedshifting there.

#43 Pete Gaimari

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Posted Sep 03 2015 - 08:04 AM

There is no limiter in GPL. I was talking about the real car John. Papy has set the limit at 9000rpm in GPL. Past that will blow in time. I believe each over-rev causes some damage, and when enough has been built up it blows.

As I said already. At the end of a race if the red needle is on 9000rpm. You did good. Anything past it you screwed up. Watch what papy has in mind by looking at where the AI shift everytime. They never short shift, or go past 9000rpm. They also never ever downshift too early. If anything they downshift very late, and don't use the engine for braking.

As cole said. Holding it at 9000rpm too long will blow it too. Gear the car so it hits 9000rpm at the very end of the longest straight. Gearing too low will hold top rpm too long. You can also hold it too long in the lower gears by hold a gear too long to get to the next turn. Choose your gearing so that doesn't happen.

Another way to blow is to have it geared for the longest straight by yourself to reach 9000rpm at the end of the straight, and then in the race you draft someone, and go past 9000rpm. better to be geared a bit higher in the race, so you can draft.

Proper gearing is critical in the Lotus. Along with common sense in rpm control.

Edited by Pete Gaimari, Sep 03 2015 - 08:10 AM.


#44 John Woods

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Posted Sep 03 2015 - 08:23 AM

"he won by pushing it to the limits of common sense."

:)

Edited by John Woods, Sep 03 2015 - 05:07 PM.


#45 John Woods

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Posted Mar 03 2018 - 10:01 AM

Another little bump...

Mr. Fangio commenting on the proper shift point.
(found in Fangio A Pirelli Album by Sterling Moss, c1991 Pavillion Books).

"Whenever I was given a fresh car I would ask the mechanics, where is the maximum torque in the engine, at what revs? Then I would drive precisely to those revs and change up around that point to have the engine's maximum torque working constantly. There was no point in revving higher towards the red line; the power would only fall away and you would be risking the life of the engine."



:D

Edited by John Woods, Mar 03 2018 - 10:04 AM.


#46 Pete Gaimari

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Posted Mar 08 2018 - 12:57 PM

Fangio didn't drive the Lotus 49, John. He drove cars with a lot of torque. What's important when you shift is to keep it in the power band for the next gear. If you short shift before redline you may drop too far in rpm for the next gear. That will hurt your acceleration.

#47 John Woods

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Posted Mar 08 2018 - 08:26 PM

Personally, set the 49 gearing to have about a 1,000 to 1,200 drop in RPM when going up thru gears with a little more drop in lower gears, (maybe 1,800rpm or so between 1-2 and 2-3).
When things are going well, this will keep torque above 90% of max.


The DFV started out with 400/408 horsepower and topped out at about 430 while in the 49.
In 67 it featured 285ftlbs of torque.
Both stats according to Lotus 49 Haynes Manual.

Apparently btw, back then dyno readouts were only considered accurate to within a few percent.

Excerpt with Clark's comments about the 49 from same source.
Apologies for the poor pic quality.




:D

Attached Files


Edited by John Woods, Mar 09 2018 - 06:29 AM.


#48 Pete Gaimari

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Posted Mar 09 2018 - 07:58 AM

Are we talking about the real car or GPL? In GPL if you short shift every shift you'll be slower. In the real car i'm sure it would make it more reliable. It's obvious that Jimmy wasn't driving at 10/10ths all the time by what he did at Monza in 67. However, even at Monza when we know he pushed the car hard he finished the race. Even if he did run out of fuel.

John, you like to use real life racers and cars and transfer it to GPL. I'd like to do that too, but it doesn't work. GPL is not a perfect simulator to real life. Some would say it's not even close. Just accept it for what it is.

Shift the Lotus at 9000 rpm except when a short shift will give better grip and it will give you the fastest lap. You can't beat the AI by taking it easy unless you turn them down slower. Which makes no sense to me. Just drive hard and leave the AI fast. As i've already mentioned. I can shift the Lotus at 9000rpm for a whole 2 hr GP race and finish. Why take it easy?

#49 Lee200

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Posted Mar 09 2018 - 09:52 AM

What Pete said.  :)

#50 gliebzeit

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Posted Mar 09 2018 - 10:16 AM

My brother, Pete .... " I can shift the Lotus at 9000rpm for a whole 2 hr GP race and finish. Why take it easy?"

You have way more stamina than me, Pete.  What exercise regimen do you have?  ;)

#51 Pete Gaimari

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Posted Mar 09 2018 - 10:54 AM

I'm an elk/bear hunter. Training for that keeps me in shape. To stay in shape for long races? Nothing beats racing long races. :D

The more you do it. The easier it gets. Oh, one last thing. A big mug of coffee next to the wheel. Drink on the long straights. Use a straw to keep eyes on track. Tracks like Monaco are the hardest for me. No place to relax.

#52 John Woods

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Posted Mar 09 2018 - 04:18 PM

View PostLee200, on Mar 09 2018 - 09:52 AM, said:

What Pete said.  :)

Really Lee? You want to back Pete up completely?

Edited by John Woods, Mar 09 2018 - 08:37 PM.


#53 Lee200

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Posted Mar 09 2018 - 06:17 PM

John, about reving to redline for max performance, yes.

#54 John Woods

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Posted Mar 09 2018 - 08:40 PM

View PostLee200, on Mar 09 2018 - 06:17 PM, said:

John, about reving to redline for max performance, yes.

Okay, but just my very humble opinion that is not what Pete said and for sure not all he said.

Sorry Lee, I know sometimes we mortals severely test the happiness of the gods of GPL.

Hopefully this wretch will yet again be forgiven.

Edited by John Woods, Mar 09 2018 - 08:58 PM.


#55 Pete Gaimari

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Posted Mar 10 2018 - 09:04 AM

That's exactly what I said. I said by short shifting every shift like you suggest will be slower. I said shifting at 9000rpm will be the fastest lap times.

How did I not say shifting at redline would be max performance. You're hung up at shifting at max torque. That won't be the fastest. You want to shift at max HP and in the GPL 67 Lotus that is 9000 rpm.

#56 John Woods

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Posted Mar 10 2018 - 10:36 AM

Argue with Fangio, Pete, I didn't say anything about short shifting.
BTW, iirc brr's analysis of the Lotus 49 confirmed, in his opinion anyway, that redline is 9,200rpm.
My preference is to shift when the engine sound gets to its highest pitch...somewhere around 9,400 I think.
:P

Just spent about three hours off and on searching for shift point  and torque vs. horsepower and now that my brain is totally fogged over with physics formulas and many differing opinions about when to shift in r/l and with a racing simulator find the quote below to be the most entertaining and helpful.

"For any point in time, the highest acceleration is achieved with the highest torque at the wheels. Gears multiply torque, so generally, the lowest gear provides the highest acceleration. The problem is, you can't go very fast in 1st gear, so you need to upshift to go faster, even though it means lower torque output. As long as the output torque in 1st gear is higher than output torque in 2nd for a given road speed, you should stay in 1st. Of course, you will soon run out of rpms and be forced to upshift.

The same holds true for 2nd. As long as the output torque in 2nd is greater than what you would get from 3rd for any given road speed, you should continue to accelerate in 2nd. Depending on your car's torque curve and gearing, there may be a point where, for a given road speed, you can get the same torque in 3rd as you are getting in 2nd. This is where you would want to shift, as the torque curve is falling, and because of the multiplying effect of gears, the output torque in second is falling faster than it would be in 3rd. In this case, more torque is achieved in 3rd gear, so you should use it."


its from here: http://glennmessersm...iftpt.html#data

Notice it features a shift point calculator, in case anyone knows what values to plug into it.

Also, GPL Setup Assistant features a gearing calculator that offers analysis of the best gearing to get to a specified top end in least time.

Get it here.



:D

Edited by John Woods, Mar 10 2018 - 12:05 PM.


#57 Pete Gaimari

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Posted Mar 10 2018 - 01:14 PM

Yes, I shift at 9250 rpm, but that's 9000 rpm on the tach in GPL. That's what i'm recommending to do.

Maybe you didn't say to take it easy to save the car, but that's what Fangio and Jimmy said in the articles you posted. I assume you agree with what you post?

#58 John Woods

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Posted Mar 10 2018 - 02:10 PM

I assume if Juan and Jimmy were around today they would of course be registered supporting members here, driving on-line in the 55s and 67s, and would be making their own comments as they did back then.

That would not imply in any way whether I agree with them, just that their comments sit in the ether open to all challenges about their credibility or validity.

Well, probably they are not here except in spirit no doubt we all feel close to them.

Their words seemed appropriate to the thread, so were posted on their behalf.
:)


Anyway, it seems the critical torque is torque at the tire patch, not necessarily engine torque which is modified by the trans and diff and as many other factors and equations as anyone would care to include in a discussion about the best shift point.

During acceleration, if torque at the driving wheels is falling off its time to shift and hope the trans designer got it right.



:D

Edited by John Woods, Mar 10 2018 - 03:01 PM.


#59 Pete Gaimari

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Posted Mar 10 2018 - 02:35 PM

That's where we disagree. Their comments are appropriate for the real cars. GPL is different.

It would be nice to imagine them driving GPL, but I kind of doubt. Jackie Stewart never did. They weren't like modern race drivers.

#60 John Woods

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Posted Mar 12 2018 - 06:22 PM

So you would not be interested in some actual setup numbers for the real 67 Lotus 49?




:D




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