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Chaparral 2F Detail


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#1 Paddy the Irishman

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Posted Nov 25 2014 - 02:57 PM

The Chaparral 2F had an automatic 3 speed transmission,  Thinking of the 'realism police' I tried lapping with 'Automatic Shifting' ticked.  It is rather interesting - full throttle up shifts and downshifts rather later than I normally do which left me feeling less stable cornering.

Eventually my times were almost identical around Watkins Glen whether auto or manual (I'm not giving you details of the times though !).

If you haven't tried it already, have a go and let us know what you think

:dino:

#2 gliebzeit

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Posted Nov 25 2014 - 03:21 PM

From Jim Hall interview circa 2012:

"We were actively shifting it. It was just a dog-clutch gearbox with a torque convertor in front of it. You just backed-off the throttle and shifted it."

Edited by gliebzeit, Nov 26 2014 - 09:23 AM.


#3 Paddy the Irishman

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Posted Nov 26 2014 - 05:21 AM

I can't get this thing to 'quote', so this is an answer to gleibzeit above:-


Correct for the 2C; 2D and 2E in1964 and 1965 but, according to “Chapparal” by Richard Falconer,(a super book) the later 2F; 2G; 2H and 2J had 3 speed autoboxes and the gears were changed without removing hands from the wheel.

#4 gliebzeit

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Posted Nov 26 2014 - 08:42 AM

The Chaparral 2F cars had normal 3-speed manual gearboxes connected through a torque converter.  The Chaparral drivers (except the original 2 model, which had a single speed) always had to shift (by hand) the 2-speed and 3-speed gearboxes.

I really enjoy this interview with the legend, Jim Hall.   Advance to 15:50 where he talks about the 'new' car, then continue listening through 19:20.  :)

https://www.youtube....h?v=3Fkk-VbSSvU

Edited by gliebzeit, Nov 26 2014 - 09:29 AM.


#5 davef

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Posted Nov 26 2014 - 04:56 PM

Here is some detail ! :)
Sorry, can't scan entire image in one shot.

Attached File  Chappy 2F-1.JPG   396.91K   105 downloadsAttached File  chappy 2F-2.JPG   462.98K   107 downloads

#6 Paddy the Irishman

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Posted Nov 27 2014 - 08:57 AM

Thank you gentlemen both. I am a great fan of Jim Hall (one of my best memories is getting his autograph at Mid Ohio, another is shaking Briggs Cunninghams hand at his museum in California) and had not seen that video. I hadn't seen that cutaway either Dave, printed it off and going with my other Jim Hall stuff, I like the “go forward or backward selector switch” definition :up:


However I think that Jim's reference to transmissions in the video only refers to the original 1 and 2 speeders. I attach a number of scans (photos actually) from 'Chapparal' by Richard Falconer and Doug Nye and 'CHAPPARAL', Can-Am and Prototype Race Cars' by Dave Friedman) which refer to the transmissions,
It would seem to me that they worked in a similar fashion to the normal automatic gearbox, except that the engagement of the gear was by dog clutches rather than synchro cones. There is talk elsewhere of 'wear on the dog clutches' which would infer that some synchronisation of revs had to take place (see Vic Elford's remarks, though that refers to the 2J it seems to have had the 3 speed transmission from the earlier cars).

Change up was done by lift-off, but how change-down was done, I can not theorise – don't know my way around automatic gearboxes, but it would hardly have been done by kick-down.

The 'realism' is not replicated in GPL since lifting off at high revs does not bring change-up and change-down is done on speed drop, though THAT may be correct..

I query again, shold one drive the 2F automatically to get nearest to realism ?  :dino:

Attached Files



#7 gliebzeit

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Posted Nov 27 2014 - 01:53 PM

Well.... if it was always a manual gearbox with a torque converter to the transaxle (no matter how many gears)..... then the only way to change gears was to move the gears manually.  Hall was joking when he told the other drivers that it was "and automatic transmission".... replay the segment where he discusses that and hear him chuckle.

Edited by gliebzeit, Dec 01 2014 - 10:20 AM.


#8 Paddy the Irishman

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Posted Nov 27 2014 - 03:35 PM

I had thought that the above-quoted statements of Hissom that 'you could keep your hands on the wheel all the time' and Hall's own statement that ' Winchell developed the automatic transmission', would be enough to show that it was not a manual gearbox-

but there you are....
:dino:

Edited by Paddy the Irishman, Nov 27 2014 - 03:36 PM.


#9 Pete Gaimari

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Posted Nov 27 2014 - 05:32 PM

I'm not familiar with the tranny used in the Chapparal, but if it has a torque converter with a dog clutch tranny behind it. There's no way it will shift on it's own. A lever will need to be moved, but won't need a clutch depressed.

A true auto tranny will not only use a torque converter, but bands and clutches in the tranny  that are shifted by oil pressure through the valve body.

#10 davef

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Posted Nov 27 2014 - 08:31 PM

Kind of funny to see everyone (except Greg) misspell Chaparral, including me. :)

#11 Pete Gaimari

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Posted Nov 28 2014 - 08:23 AM

That's because I wasn't sure how to spell it, and copied Paddy's spelling. :)

#12 Paddy the Irishman

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Posted Nov 28 2014 - 09:06 AM

Pete writes
"A true auto tranny will not only use a torque converter, but bands and clutches in the tranny  that are shifted by oil pressure through the valve body"

Well, perhaps they were there.(Edit - or the dog clutches were worked by oil pressure?) I will grant that Jim 'hoodwinked' everyone about the nature of the early transmission, but I can not think that Hissom would, unnecessarily, make a statement that he (and Jim by implication) were able to keep their hands on the wheel at all times, nor that a respected auto-historian such as Doug Nye would allow his name to be on a book containing the Specification Chart that I include, without verifying all details.

I add further, that Jim Hall wrote a foreword to the book with Hissom's statement in it and also a statement from Bruce Jennings that I missed photoing and attaching the first time, now typed out to save bother -

"The 2D was my favorite car.  It handled just the way I liked at Sebring in 1967 (note date P) I blew off Andretti and Foyt in the Fords on the straight. I really loved doing that. The automatic transmission was fantastic.  It was very easy to operate and it was a real plus factor because you could concentrate on driving, not shifting". 'Bruce Jennings'

I'm not going to budge from saying that there was a three-speed automatic transmission in the later cars - and I expect that you, gleibzeit, will probably not budge from the contrary position.  Let's leave it at that  - (Now my emoticons will not work !  Consider yourself to be the recipient of a 'Real Big Hug' !)

Meanwhile, my abject apologies for misspelling "Chaparral" on occasion :hithead:(Emoticon worked that time)..
Having lived in AZ for about 5 years and having the greatest respect for Jim and his cars, I should have known better

Edited by Paddy the Irishman, Nov 28 2014 - 09:11 AM.


#13 TvO

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Posted Nov 28 2014 - 09:18 AM

I was always under the impression that it worked like a seqential gearbox, you pulled the stick shift, lifted the throttle so you wouldn't speed shift and overrev, and carried on.

#14 Paddy the Irishman

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Posted Nov 28 2014 - 10:02 AM

Anyone know Jim Hall's e-mail address ? :up:

#15 MECH

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Posted Nov 28 2014 - 12:13 PM

Jim.Hall@Chaparrrall.com?




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