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#41 Pete Gaimari

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Posted Jan 02 2020 - 05:00 PM

Not at all and there's a method to my madness. I'm also an early year racer. I raced the 60-70's in various cars.

My point is wouldn't you enjoy GPL better to drive like that too? I'm guilty of LF braking when I started on GPL around 2000 or so. It was faster and I just wanted to beat everybody and would have used any method to do it. However, the method really bothered me. Especially, driving 67 race cars. I finally couldn't take it and started to H&T all down shifts, use the clutch for upshifts and used an H-shifter. It took a long long time to get my old LF speed back but I was having so much more fun driving that I wasn't bothered by my lap times.

I just thought i'd pass this on to someone like yourself who raced real cars.

#42 PTRACER

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Posted Jan 02 2020 - 10:49 PM

View PostRoger_F, on Jan 02 2020 - 01:38 PM, said:

In my days of racing, left foot braking was not very prevalent; the steering column often separated the break pedal from the clutch pedal and made left foot breaking physically difficult if not impossible.  I believe this was even the case in formula one and two in the 60s and early 70s.  I occasionally drove a Formula Ford that belonged to a friend of mine and there was no way to left foot brake on his car.  How times and technology have changed!

My 1979 FF2000 was the same. Also grabbing lower gears under braking without blipping the throttle would lock the rear wheels, so you don't really want to left foot brake.

Now I have a proper shifter for GPL, I'm actually using the same kind of technique F1 drivers used in the 80s - I'm going straight from 5th gear down to 3rd gear or 2nd gear, without selecting the ones in between. I definitely miss out on some engine braking, but it also gives me a little more stability and control into the braking areas.

Edited by PTRACER, Jan 02 2020 - 10:51 PM.


#43 Roger_F

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Posted Jan 02 2020 - 10:56 PM

Pete,

Sounds like quite a journey; some basic details please.

I'm running a G29 wheel and Windows 7 on my gaming platform.  I expect i would need a Logitech H pattern shifter and some basic software as starters.

Did you build an inverted pedal arrangement and what did you do to the gas pedal to facilitate H and T etc.  In other words, did you have to build a  driving simulation rig to get the full effect.  The existing pedal set looks too close together to get this to work as is.  I currently have the break and gas pedal exchanged to facilitate left foot braking.  I also built a left pedal rest to the left of the former clutch pedal position (which now functions as a brake pedal).

I guess old racers never die they just adapt.

Best Roger

#44 Pete Gaimari

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Posted Jan 03 2020 - 08:13 AM

I do have the inverted Fanatec pedals. They do work good for H&T. However, I also have a Logi G920 wheel and pedals too. I believe the pedals are the same as your G29 but i'm not sure. It's a little harder to H&T with them but still not a problem. I use a Fanatec shifter. The Logi shifter will work.

I'm confused about you swapping the brake and throttle. That would put the throttle operated with your LF. How does that work?

#45 Roger_F

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Posted Jan 03 2020 - 08:26 AM

View PostPTRACER, on Jan 02 2020 - 10:49 PM, said:

My 1979 FF2000 was the same. Also grabbing lower gears under braking without blipping the throttle would lock the rear wheels, so you don't really want to left foot brake.

Now I have a proper shifter for GPL, I'm actually using the same kind of technique F1 drivers used in the 80s - I'm going straight from 5th gear down to 3rd gear or 2nd gear, without selecting the ones in between. I definitely miss out on some engine braking, but it also gives me a little more stability and control into the braking areas.

PTRACER,

Do you use the clutch, and what mods have you made to your driving simulation rig.  Like I said to Pete, the existing pedal arrangement looks too close to function as is?  Also, what shifter and software do you recommend?

Best Roger

#46 PTRACER

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Posted Jan 06 2020 - 09:56 PM

View PostRoger_F, on Jan 03 2020 - 08:26 AM, said:

PTRACER,

Do you use the clutch, and what mods have you made to your driving simulation rig.  Like I said to Pete, the existing pedal arrangement looks too close to function as is?  Also, what shifter and software do you recommend?

Best Roger

I try to use the clutch, but my GPLshift software isn't set up to punish me for not using it. I kinda use it out of habit when changing up, but not when changing down so I can left foot brake. I have CSL Elite pedals mounted regularly and I've moved my clutch over to the far left and the brake pedal and throttle are very close together so I can H&T. Shifter is the Thrustmaster TH8A.

Edited by PTRACER, Jan 06 2020 - 09:57 PM.


#47 Roger_F

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Posted Jan 07 2020 - 07:15 AM

View PostPete Gaimari, on Jan 03 2020 - 08:13 AM, said:

I do have the inverted Fanatec pedals. They do work good for H&T. However, I also have a Logi G920 wheel and pedals too. I believe the pedals are the same as your G29 but i'm not sure. It's a little harder to H&T with them but still not a problem. I use a Fanatec shifter. The Logi shifter will work.

I'm confused about you swapping the brake and throttle. That would put the throttle operated with your LF. How does that work?

Pete,

I swapped the clutch and brake on my Logitech G29 pedals to facilitate left foot braking.  In their original position the throttle and brake were too close together to allow comfortable left foot braking.  The clutch is in the middle position and not used.   If I add a shifter, I guess I will have to return the pedals to their original positions to use the clutch.

How does trail breaking work in your set up?  Also, do you think I will have to build an inverted brake set up to allow functional heal toe.  As much as I like where you have gone, this is starting to look like a lot of work.  Sounds like I really need to build or buy a home sim rig to really enjoy old style shifting and breaking?

Thanks for all the info and interest,

Roger

#48 Roger_F

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Posted Jan 07 2020 - 07:25 AM

View PostPTRACER, on Jan 06 2020 - 09:56 PM, said:

I try to use the clutch, but my GPLshift software isn't set up to punish me for not using it. I kinda use it out of habit when changing up, but not when changing down so I can left foot brake. I have CSL Elite pedals mounted regularly and I've moved my clutch over to the far left and the brake pedal and throttle are very close together so I can H&T. Shifter is the Thrustmaster TH8A.

Thanks for the info, as I said to Pete, this is starting to look like I need to buy or build a sim rig to really enjoy the full effects of heal  toe and clutch induced shifting.  I'm also concerned about trail breaking with my existing Logitech G29 pedals.  I'm retired and have the time and resources but my office is currently a multi purpose arrangement.  A full sim rig would ruin my current multipurpose arrangement.   You and Pete have given me a lot to think about.

Thanks for the info and interest.

Roger

#49 Pete Gaimari

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Posted Jan 07 2020 - 08:06 AM

No, you don't need to have inverted pedals. I used the regular Fanatec V3 and V2 pedals for years. I even used the Logi G920 pedals for awhile. Having a brake load cell makes H&T much easier because the pedal doesn't move down but about 1/2". It applies the brake through pressure instead of pedal movement. Similar to a real brake.

#50 PTRACER

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Posted Jan 07 2020 - 08:14 PM

View PostRoger_F, on Jan 07 2020 - 07:25 AM, said:

Thanks for the info, as I said to Pete, this is starting to look like I need to buy or build a sim rig to really enjoy the full effects of heal  toe and clutch induced shifting.  I'm also concerned about trail breaking with my existing Logitech G29 pedals.  I'm retired and have the time and resources but my office is currently a multi purpose arrangement.  A full sim rig would ruin my current multipurpose arrangement.   You and Pete have given me a lot to think about.

Thanks for the info and interest.

Roger

Hey Roger,

I recommend this wheel stand. It's pretty cheap, very sturdy and totally collapsible so you can kind of fold it away when not in use!

https://www.amazon.c...8449442&sr=8-11

Official site, worldwide shipping: https://www.wheelstandpro.com/

#51 Roger_F

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Posted Jan 17 2020 - 01:20 PM

Pete and PTRACER,

Bought a Logitech shifter that goes with my G29 wheel and started the journey.  Took the pedals apart and returned them to their original positions with the gas and brake mounted close together and the clutch as far to the left as it would go.  Logitech has three mounting positions for each pedal on their respective shafts.  Pete as you said, RF braking is a challenge after 20 years of LF training.  I built a pedal stand and an attachment arrangement for my office chair that is removable.  The pedal stand has a built-in foot rest for the left foot (left of the clutch).  A Sim rig of some sort is not out of the question.  Heal and Toe is not very comfortable, inverted pedals might also be a future project.

The H pattern shifting has been a technical struggle with conflicts between, GPL, GEM, FairShift and the Logitech G29 shifter.  Sequenced shifting works fine, so I built a quick fix to turn my new shifter into a sequenced unit.  What would life be with out a few challenges.  I could live with the sequenced shifter if the other struggle doesn't get solved; almost nothing works right the first time out.

I am really enjoying this new journey.  

Thanks again, to both of you for the encouragement and technical help.  

Best ... Roger

#52 one2fwee

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Posted Jan 18 2020 - 09:18 PM

View PostPTRACER, on Jan 07 2020 - 08:14 PM, said:

Hey Roger,

I recommend this wheel stand. It's pretty cheap, very sturdy and totally collapsible so you can kind of fold it away when not in use!

https://www.amazon.c...8449442&sr=8-11

Official site, worldwide shipping: https://www.wheelstandpro.com/
Hmm those kind of stands are really awkward cos of the giant pole in the way! Something like this might be better value, although obviously would take up more room:
https://www.fk-shop....5gi2ugvnrqqmg41



The biggest problem for me with all modern logitech wheels is the FFB deadzone: http://srmz.net/inde...85



How does the FFB in GPL work?
Watching some videos from Niels Heusinkveld makes me believe that maybe oscillation if you let go of the wheel on a straight is also down to a lack of simulation of damping  / inertia forces in the steering system as a whole. If so, it surprises me that force feedback in games does not try and model this so that it can be simulated specifically for each car.

See these two videos, especially the first one where he is talking about configuring a direct drive wheel for various simulated cars individually and the problems that need to be overcome:
https://www.youtube....h?v=v98AxZNR5jI

https://www.youtube....h?v=pCq01LHaIVg

What i find strange is that he doesn't mention anything about why sims do not simulate these things (assuming they don't).

Anyway, you could try adding damping, friction and inertia to your ffb to see if it helps. Watch the first video in particular to give you an idea.

I know that logitech wheels allow you to add a damping force, but i'm not sure what this means - is it taking a damping force that is being sent to it from the game and applying it as a percentage? Or is it just a constant, arbitrary force?
The same question for the spring force you can select too (not the centring spring one). What kind of force is that meant to be? Inertia? And is it arbitrary or based on values received from directinput FFB?

Thanks!

#53 Roger_F

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Posted Jan 21 2020 - 09:07 AM

One2free,

You ask some interesting questions.  I don't have exact causal answers but can contribute some specific solutions; some are equipment related some more general in nature.

On an earlier post, I discussed my attempts to tailor individual Force Feed Back (FFB) solutions to each GPL Mod.  My supposition was that one size fits all could be improved upon!  Let me digress a little and discuss the equipment that I have employed in this quest:

Logitech G29 wheel, pedals, and shifter; Windows 7 home built gaming computer with recently upgraded video card and gaming monitor;  and some trial and error adjustment to hardware and software.  To keep this fairly brief, I'll just hit the high points.

(1) After testing various FFB software packages, I selected Ffb3 test1 software as my base case for further development.  It was clearly better on my equipment that anything else I could find.  You can find out more detail earlier on this thread if you are interested.

(2) This FFB package seems to adjusts or cancel out the need to do much with Latency or Damping; leaving Maximum force as the primary FFB adjustment variable in each Mod.  After much testing I set the first two variables at "0" and "9" and varied just Maximum force in each mod.  The higher the value the less FFB force felt at the wheel.  The physics of each mod varied significantly as to FFB needs.  Can AM and Sports Car mods had values of 600 plus and the earlier 1965 and 1966 F1 Mods, values around 500.

(3) In addition to the adjustments discussed in (2), I played around with wheel centering force and ultimately set that at 10 % in the Logitech  software package.  The latest Logitech version added this variable as an adjustment.  I used Monacane and Brands Hatch as the primary test tracks to set these values; F1 / F2 : Moncane ... the other Mods: Brands Hatch.

(3) My test driving variables were ultimately: sequenced shifter, clutch shifting and right foot braking.  I did some no clutch LF Braking and came to similar FFB solutions so technique did not seem to be a major FFB variable.  RF Braking does require different suspension set ups, for sure (60/45 and 85/45 are good places to start)!

(4) I also experimented with Fairshift  H pattern versus Sequenced shifting.  The G29 shifter works much better after being modified to sequenced shifting.  This is primarily due to the hardware not the technique.  Recreating realism in GPL seems to be a study in adapting simulation hardware in an attempt to imitate real life experience.  My objectives are to simulate the real world not to find the fastest Sim Solution.  The latter is LF Braking, no clutch, heavily ride brakes and gas, and set ups that have little to do with reality.

It is not reality to LF brake and RF gas simultaneously on these early F1, F2 and Sports Racing Cars; first not physically possible and secondly the breaks would not be up to the task for more than a few laps.

That's probably enough for this post.  My GPL mods are much improved in terms or realism and enjoyment as a result of the above referenced changes.

Many thanks to all those who have helped on this continuing journey.

Roger

#54 MSMoney

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Posted Jan 23 2020 - 01:44 PM

Not really a reply... more of a question. Has/does anyone know of a way the get FFB in GPL on a Fanatec DD2 wheel?  Would very much appreciate the sharing of this knowledge.

TIA
JIm

Edited by MSMoney, Jan 23 2020 - 01:45 PM.


#55 Pete Gaimari

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Posted Jan 28 2020 - 12:25 PM

View PostRoger_F, on Jan 17 2020 - 01:20 PM, said:

Pete and PTRACER,

Bought a Logitech shifter that goes with my G29 wheel and started the journey.  Took the pedals apart and returned them to their original positions with the gas and brake mounted close together and the clutch as far to the left as it would go.  Logitech has three mounting positions for each pedal on their respective shafts.  Pete as you said, RF braking is a challenge after 20 years of LF training.  I built a pedal stand and an attachment arrangement for my office chair that is removable.  The pedal stand has a built-in foot rest for the left foot (left of the clutch).  A Sim rig of some sort is not out of the question.  Heal and Toe is not very comfortable, inverted pedals might also be a future project.

The H pattern shifting has been a technical struggle with conflicts between, GPL, GEM, FairShift and the Logitech G29 shifter.  Sequenced shifting works fine, so I built a quick fix to turn my new shifter into a sequenced unit.  What would life be with out a few challenges.  I could live with the sequenced shifter if the other struggle doesn't get solved; almost nothing works right the first time out.

I am really enjoying this new journey.  

Thanks again, to both of you for the encouragement and technical help.  

Best ... Roger

Have fun. :)

#56 one2fwee

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Posted Feb 07 2020 - 10:12 AM

View PostRoger_F, on Jan 21 2020 - 09:07 AM, said:

RF Braking does require different suspension set ups, for sure (60/45 and 85/45 are good places to start)!
I assume you mean diff setups? You can kind of get used to aggresive rotation coast diffs if you use a very light touch on the brake, but it's quite difficult and hard to brake well. You have to be quite gentle and i can't help but feel i don't get the same efficiency as those who exploit the physics by keeping some throttle on at all times.

View PostRoger_F, on Jan 21 2020 - 09:07 AM, said:

(4) I also experimented with Fairshift  H pattern versus Sequenced shifting.  The G29 shifter works much better after being modified to sequenced shifting.  This is primarily due to the hardware not the technique.  Recreating realism in GPL seems to be a study in adapting simulation hardware in an attempt to imitate real life experience.  My objectives are to simulate the real world not to find the fastest Sim Solution.  The latter is LF Braking, no clutch, heavily ride brakes and gas, and set ups that have little to do with reality.

It is not reality to LF brake and RF gas simultaneously on these early F1, F2 and Sports Racing Cars; first not physically possible and secondly the breaks would not be up to the task for more than a few laps.
Yes, i don't like it either for those reasons. It really does feel to me that keeping some throttle on shortens braking distances considerably when i experimented with it. Even if you change the setups to cope with rfb, the actual braking distances seemed longer (even disregarding the amount of time you would lose switching from throttle to brake).

#57 Roger_F

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Posted Feb 08 2020 - 09:42 AM

One2fwee,

Yesterday's cars were a blast to drive and race.  They required skills like double clutching and heal / toe that are lost on the youth of today.  The new cars are definitely faster but I'm not so sure more fun to drive.

GPL gives an old warier like myself a chance to recreate those old skills and experiences; cheating the physics model seems to be counterproductive to the word "simulation."  I did it for many years due to old two pedal equipment and the lack of a shifter ... i'm enjoying the added realism of clutches, shifters, and proper old school technique.  Pete Gaimari started me down this path and I'm really enjoying the trip.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts ... Roger

#58 Pete Gaimari

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Posted Feb 08 2020 - 12:25 PM

:D




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