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1965 Formula One Season By C.r.o.m.s. (V2.2.0.2)

1965 Formula 1 One F1 CROMS

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#16 Lord

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Posted Apr 29 2014 - 03:47 PM

View Postleon_90, on Apr 29 2014 - 02:42 PM, said:

View PostLord, on Apr 29 2014 - 01:41 PM, said:

Mh. I don't mean to be crass, but please show me your degree in Mechanical Engineering, if you have one as I do. rFactor has it's own limitations (it's impossible to code brake fading, de Dion axles, bow axles and such for example), but it's absurd that an engine shouldn't blow up after going on the last red degrees after 20 seconds at least. Yes, there were some issues on cooling in the 1.03 version, but we revised them to be more manageable in the v2.202: if you always change gear in the red degrees, don't be surprised if your engine won't last a couple of laps. Sadly rFactor isn't like Assetto Corsa, if the calculation is too precise for what the sim can handle, the result is going to be not what you expected, so you have to work within a certain margin of error to make it manageable. And I'm not replying anymore on this side of the topic, if you don't mind.

I can show you a pic of the degree anytime but I hope we do not arrive to that ;) First of all, let me remind that mine are friendly comments. I know that they may be rude, but it is because of a general trend I see in mods that I absolutely hate, let me be sincere. But my intent is to help, not to destroy.

I do not like the fact that you do not want to reply anymore about the subject, but I can understand that right now you may feel quite disappointed since you were all happy about this announcement and comments here have not been so positive. So I want to remind you also all the good things I found in the previous version of your mod, and that as you pointed out some faults are due to the ISI engine which has it's flaws and respect to which modders have nothing to be blamed about.

The 65 mod for rFactor is quite fun and challenging. I really liked it because textures were good and not basic conversions or porting like those I've seen in some other mods. Sounds are really good too, giving quite the sense of immersion. Physics, in my opinion, is quite good too. Cars handle pretty realistically given the kind of chassis, the engine and the weight. There are specific carsets for each race, so to give historical credit to every single race, and at the same time a general carset, good for every race. There are cars not present in GPL 65 like the Ferrari 158, the Alfa, and some others I don't remember now. I liked very much the mod and I have it still installed in my rFactor, and that's a good thing if you think that I have left installed only the '71 F1 mod and your '65 F1 mod, won't you agree? They are quite fun.
Songs chosen for the main menu simply rocks :)

So your previous work is actually a really good work and one of the best mod avalaible for rFactor, and in fact the community saw this and has given proper credit from what I've seen to the work ;) :)   ( when I say yours of course I mean of the team also, I know that there is all a team behind this and so compliments have to be given to all for the good work)

But allow me to say, that the cooling problem was and is still today unacceptable. I can understand it is partly fault of rFactor itself but then you say to me: but it's absurd that an engine shouldn't blow up after going on the last red degrees after 20 seconds at least.

Well it depends. If the car is moving why should it blow? It's being cooled by radiators and so from air taken while moving! If the car is not moving than yes of course it will blow.

Then again you say if you always change gear in the red degrees, don't be surprised if your engine won't last a couple of laps.

And why would this happen? Given that red line is at 10500 rpm which is maximum engine's rpm number, and I'm changing in between 10000 rpm and 10500 why should it blow in a couple of laps? It should, if I'm standing still (which is not the case here, as we are assuming I'm moving) or if I'm shifting at 15000 rpm at least, which in rFactor is not possible because it does not allow to overevving this way from what I know. The engine is cooled! It won't blow up, unless cooling does not work anymore or other problems related to the engine start showing up (oil, plugs, valves). Shifting on the red line does not make an engine blow, and even more so if we are talking of a couple laps. If it would be so, then how would engine brake work? Engine brake pushes the engine to max rpm limit when not using pedals brake but no engine would blow for that. Someone gave an answer to this saying that it is because they are old engine. That's why I was saying that modders should respect users. I'm not an idiot, no engine would blow given those reasons, even the one of a Ford T or any other car, even the first ones from late XIX century, because it is the way they work. Stressing the engine by pushing the rpm to the red line increases the mechanical stress, but in no way it degrades it (and so fast).

You have a degree in Mechanical Engineering so I know you understand what I'm saying here :)

You said that this problem has been fixed, so I'm happy ;) This means that, together with the trackpack, this is gonna be a great great mod :)
There is no need to answer me about this, and for me also the subject is closed but If I have offended you anyhow I apologize. I see you are Italian too so: Ti chiedo scusa, dovessero esserci ulteriori incomprensioni ne discutiamo anche per messaggio privato senza problema poiché è mio interesse chiarirmi ;)

For rain, what do you mean by a better way than RFE Plugin? You lads are using a new developed plugin for rain?? :) :)

Well, we are using retexturing and new tdf files, RFE is way too unreliable to even build something on: it even crashes if the NET framework code isn't coded both in the mod and the track, which is the majority of the cases :/

Sì infatti... chiedo scusa pure io, mi ero lasciato trasportare dall' incavolamento generale che sta nascendo da questo topic: non ho interesse a litigare per un pezzo di software. ;) The problem is way deeper than that if I have to be honest: you are right in addressing those issues, but in rF doesn't work that way in a clear and understandable way: even HistorX 1,96 (the latest release) suffers from this. For example, in that mod the cars don't blow up after being at top speed too much time in the red zone's end, but their temperature will rise up: usually this in only halfway correct, because the valves can't sustain the top rpms (especially int 50's and 60's) for more than 15-20 seconds: Forghieri said me (and I have some books that prove it also, like "Forghieri On Ferrari" and "1 1/2 Litre racing:high tech low power") that the 1512 was able to run above the 12k rpms, but it suffered great valve timing issues and most of the time generic main shaft and valve shafts failures at 12200 rpms. Honda had the same problem, but with a slightly broader range, Climaxes were the weakest of all. So... in the end, guess we're both right. ;)


A little thing to the other guys that seem to have some difficulties in thinking before talking: just another post with that tone and I'll be pretty sure that one of the admins will either pick you by one of your ears or close the topic. There are way more civil manners to express dissent.

#17 Lord

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Posted May 05 2014 - 09:56 AM

Links added to the first post: have fun! ;)

#18 TvO

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Posted May 06 2014 - 03:14 AM

Congratulations of your release! Are there any screenshots available?

#19 dbell84

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Posted May 07 2014 - 03:13 PM

Awesome, looking forward to trying it out!



View PostLord, on Apr 29 2014 - 10:27 AM, said:


In loving memory of Enzo Anselmo Ferrari, Bruce Leslie McLaren and Ruud Dingemans




Really nice that you put Ruud in there.  He is missed and Rudy would have loved being mentioned in the same group as Enzo Ferrari and Bruce McLaren.


#20 David Wright Lo67

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Posted May 07 2014 - 04:14 PM

View PostLord, on Apr 29 2014 - 01:41 PM, said:


rFactor has it's own limitations (it's impossible to code brake fading,

rFactor certainly includes brake fade.

I do appreciate the enormous amount of work which goes into producing physics for a mod like this.  You need to do a great deal of research to get the data to put into the physics engine and you need to do a great deal of work to understand how the physics engine works.

I've had a quick look through the new physics files.  A couple of things stood out as possible areas to improve.  The suspension is too stiff and the cars have downforce when in reality they would have lift.

#21 Jens C. Lindblad

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Posted May 08 2014 - 02:19 PM

After a very quick tryout in short races at Goodwood and Monaco I can see myself returning to this, because I actually quite enjoyed it. :saythat:

Good graphics for cars and tracks, good and tasteful menus, good sounds, although I think I do detect some high revving modern F1 engine sounds faintly in the background when watching a race replay in spectator mode, or am I just imagining this?

On first appearance this mod looks well put together and with appreciation for the subject matter.

In other words, future refinement and improvements will only make it better.

Thank you to the mod team for taking the time to make this mod available to us. :wubit:

#22 Lord

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Posted May 14 2014 - 04:53 AM

[quote name='dbell84' timestamp='1399497199' post='100244']
Awesome, looking forward to trying it out!



[quote name='Lord' timestamp='1398788856' post='99852']

In loving memory of Enzo Anselmo Ferrari, Bruce Leslie McLaren and Ruud Dingemans

[/quote]

Really nice that you put Ruud in there.  He is missed and Rudy would have loved being mentioned in the same group as Enzo Ferrari and Bruce McLaren.
[/quote]

To be honest, it was almost obliged that we had to include Ruud in that line: he helped us with the development until two days before he passed away, so we had to put him in not only as a beta tester, but as an inspiration to all of us. And yes, he will be missed.

[quote name='David Wright Lo67' timestamp='1399500882' post='100246']
[quote name='Lord' timestamp='1398800476' post='99870']
rFactor has it's own limitations (it's impossible to code brake fading,
[/quote]

rFactor certainly includes brake fade.

I do appreciate the enormous amount of work which goes into producing physics for a mod like this.  You need to do a great deal of research to get the data to put into the physics engine and you need to do a great deal of work to understand how the physics engine works.

I've had a quick look through the new physics files.  A couple of things stood out as possible areas to improve.  The suspension is too stiff and the cars have downforce when in reality they would have lift.
[/quote]

I'm really happy you appreciate our work David, and thank you for your suggestions ;)
If I may ask, how can rFactor simulate brake fade? Not even ISI had implemented that feature in their own cars... I'm really curious about this, it can help us improve this mod even more ;)
Also, I had a really hard time in calculating the lift for these cars, so I had to go guessing parameters from Assetto Corsa's Lotus 49: basically it's the same aerodynamic structure, but I'd be really glad if you could provide some hints on it :)

[quote name='Jens C. Lindblad' timestamp='1399580391' post='100276']
After a very quick tryout in short races at Goodwood and Monaco I can see myself returning to this, because I actually quite enjoyed it. :saythat:

Good graphics for cars and tracks, good and tasteful menus, good sounds, although I think I do detect some high revving modern F1 engine sounds faintly in the background when watching a race replay in spectator mode, or am I just imagining this?

On first appearance this mod looks well put together and with appreciation for the subject matter.

In other words, future refinement and improvements will only make it better.

Thank you to the mod team for taking the time to make this mod available to us. :wubit:
[/quote]

Well, some sounds had to be taken by standard great production cars from the era (HistorX mod mainly) and tweaked because even in F1-SR didn't have a clue on how to reconstruct the sound from such damaged clips from the era: sure, we can use modern Goodwood ones, but other than Honda, BRM and V8 ferrari there wasn't much to go with, but we never used modern F1 cars to take sounds from, no sir ;)

About the presentation we wanted to give it a classic style like GPL has (we've been always fond of that layout) but also making it a bit more modern. Also, we wanted to avoid the ugliness that is carried on by the rFactor UI (seriously guys, it's clunky to mod and a general pain in the butt to be seen when it is in vanilla configuration), so we thought this UI would work and help distinguish our mod among the others :)

#23 David Wright Lo67

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Posted May 14 2014 - 05:01 PM

View PostLord, on May 14 2014 - 04:53 AM, said:

If I may ask, how can rFactor simulate brake fade? Not even ISI had implemented that feature in their own cars... I'm really curious about this, it can help us improve this mod even more ;)

ISI certainly implemented it although in the modern cars they simulated, brake fade is rarely an  issue, so although modelled you are unlikely to experience it.

The original rFactor hdv files have the following lines

BrakeOptimumTemp=250.0   // optimum brake temperature in Celsius (peak brake grip)
BrakeFadeRange=400.0 // temperature outside of optimum that brake grip drops to half (too hot or too cold)

These lines let you define at what temperature the brakes are most effective, and at what temperature the brakes fade.  In the above example, if the brakes reach 650 degrees, then their braking effectiveness falls to half of the braking force at 250 degrees

If we look at the values you use in the Lotus 33

BrakeOptimumTemp=600.0   // optimum brake temperature in Celsius (peak brake grip)
BrakeFadeRange=1250.0 // temperature outside of optimum that brake grip drops to half (too hot or too cold)

Your brakes do not drop to half effectiveness until they reach 1850 degrees, so they won't fade because they won't get that hot.

In reality cast iron melts at 1200 degrees, steel at 1370 degrees.


BrakeHeating=0.00104 // heat added linearly with brake torque times wheel speed (at max disc thickness)
BrakeCooling=(3.00e-002,3.56e-004)  // minimum brake cooling rate (base and per unit velocity) (at max disc thickness)
BrakeDuctCooling=9.54e-005   // brake cooling rate per brake duct setting (at max disc thickness)

These lines let you define the brake heating and cooling.  If the brakes have insufficient cooling they will reach a high temperature and fade (as defined in the previous lines).

Later rFactor hdv files are more sophisticated

BrakeResponseCurve=(-70,540,700,1730) // First value is cold temperature (where brake torque is half optimum), min temp for optimum brake torque, max temp for optimum brake torque, and overheated temperature (where brake torque is half optimum)

Instead of a single optimum temperature, you can now define a range.  This is more realistic and lets you define a sharper drop off in grip when the brakes get too hot. I should point out these are modern F1 brakes which do get very hot.

BrakeHeating=0.00191    // Heat added linearly with brake torque times wheel speed (at max disc thickness)
BrakeCooling=(3.050e-02,3.820e-04) // Minimum brake cooling rate (base and per unit velocity) (at max disc thickness)
BrakeDuctCooling=0.733e-04 // Brake cooling rate per brake duct setting (at max disc thickness)

These are as before.

BrakeGlow=(750.0,1000.0)    // Temperature range (in Celsius) that brake glow ramps up

This is a new option and allows you to make the brake discs glow.


View PostLord, on May 14 2014 - 04:53 AM, said:

Also, I had a really hard time in calculating the lift for these cars, so I had to go guessing parameters from Assetto Corsa's Lotus 49: basically it's the same aerodynamic structure, but I'd be really glad if you could provide some hints on it :)

Data on the amount of lift the cars suffered from is very thin on the ground.  We know is they did suffer from lift and did not generate downforce.  There is an SAE paper indicating an open wheeler racing car without wings produced lift equivalent to 40-50% of the drag, so we can make an educated guess

You have currently defined downforce in the following line

BodyFore=(0.0, -0.200, 0.330)   // aero forces from moving forwards (lift value important, but drag overwritten)

the middle figure is the key.  It is currently negative - this is downforce.  To change it to lift get rid of the minus sign.  As above I'd suggest using a figure of 40-50% of the drag.

Edited by David Wright Lo67, May 14 2014 - 05:14 PM.


#24 samuelw

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Posted May 16 2014 - 05:00 AM

Thanks for this mod.  Inspired me to reactivate rF.  Since installing found it quite addictive.   AI suprisingly good especially compared to previous rF AI.   Lots of privateer teams I had never heard of.   Cars very driftable!  Associated trackpack gives plenty of places to play.  Special mention must be made of the nice video introduction that goes with the mod.  David Wright Lo67 has always impressed me as very knowledgeable but while the current physics may have deficiencies they are certainly believable, better than the physics for a lot of mods, and fun to drive.  AS mentioned by others the whole thing looks good too.   Thanks for everyone's hard work.
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#25 Wee Scot

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Posted Jun 02 2014 - 11:53 AM

View PostDavid Wright Lo67, on May 14 2014 - 05:01 PM, said:

View PostLord, on May 14 2014 - 04:53 AM, said:

If I may ask, how can rFactor simulate brake fade? Not even ISI had implemented that feature in their own cars... I'm really curious about this, it can help us improve this mod even more ;)

ISI certainly implemented it although in the modern cars they simulated, brake fade is rarely an  issue, so although modelled you are unlikely to experience it.

The original rFactor hdv files have the following lines

BrakeOptimumTemp=250.0   // optimum brake temperature in Celsius (peak brake grip)
BrakeFadeRange=400.0 // temperature outside of optimum that brake grip drops to half (too hot or too cold)

These lines let you define at what temperature the brakes are most effective, and at what temperature the brakes fade.  In the above example, if the brakes reach 650 degrees, then their braking effectiveness falls to half of the braking force at 250 degrees

If we look at the values you use in the Lotus 33

BrakeOptimumTemp=600.0   // optimum brake temperature in Celsius (peak brake grip)
BrakeFadeRange=1250.0 // temperature outside of optimum that brake grip drops to half (too hot or too cold)

Your brakes do not drop to half effectiveness until they reach 1850 degrees, so they won't fade because they won't get that hot.

In reality cast iron melts at 1200 degrees, steel at 1370 degrees.

etc., etc.

Please forgive me jumping in just long enough to say how incredibly helpful and generous David has been over the years with his advice. And always respectful and free of the ego and self-aggrandizement that "afflicts" so many otherwise brilliant sim-modders.

Now I'll go away and leave this thread to the experts!

Oh, BTW, I love this rFactor mod. Thanks ever so much for giving it to us!

Edited by Wee Scot, Jun 02 2014 - 11:54 AM.


#26 Lord

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Posted Jun 02 2014 - 01:15 PM

Thanks to you guys: I'm very glad that you like the mod and provide us such valuable feedback, it's this kind of comments that help us develop a better mod - kind and constructive as the greatest part of the GPL community is ;)

@David Wright: wow man! your info is really useful: I've tried the new parameters on the RA271 and... oh boy where do I begin? I've set the lift at 50% of the basic drag and I've set the braking values to

REAR
BrakeResponseCurve=(20,35,450,580)
BrakeWearRate=1.215e-011
BrakeFailure=(1.33e-002,7.20e-004)
BrakeTorque=1190.0
BrakeHeating=0.00060
BrakeCooling=(0.982e-002,2.36e-004)
BrakeDuctCooling=0.529e-004

FRONT
BrakeDiscInertia=1.25
BrakeResponseCurve=(20,35,450,580)
BrakeWearRate=1.215e-011
BrakeFailure=(1.33e-002,7.20e-004)
BrakeTorque=1370.0
BrakeHeating=0.00060
BrakeCooling=(0.986e-002,2.680e-004)
BrakeDuctCooling=0.649e-004

just to make a test: the braking is way better than it was before (and way more dangerous if took to the limit) and the steering response is more believable than before, I felt the car lifting up when hitting a sudden bank on the road, like Flugplatz Kurve. I still have to tune up the brake response curve, but as of now it's a hell of an improvement ;) Thank you so much for the hint :)

#27 Rob burns

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Posted Aug 16 2014 - 08:48 PM

What a fantastic mod. I think it is the mod that will have me remove GPL....do I really need two installations of the 1965 season? The weakest link for me in GPL remained the sound....Windows Vista and GPL sound never worked for me. Then there was the issues of limitations to 7 teams etc...
The rFactor 1965 mod has great sound (but not perfect, that Ferrari V12 lacks the oomph...but the V8 is great!!!) as well as the full range of every team and driver of that season. AI race reasonably well...with the bonus of wet tracks where they belong. This along with the 71 mod, and Historic GT make rfactor still great.
I have had GPL installed on every computer since 2001...but the clock is ticking now,
To the creators of this mod: THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!

#28 TurboMan

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Posted Oct 08 2014 - 12:40 PM

Sorry for the off-topic, i'd like to ask if the F1 '65 mod works on GTR2?
I assume it doesn't, so is someone working on any conversion or are there plans to do it?

Best regards :)

#29 Aysedasi

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Posted Oct 13 2014 - 09:45 AM

I'm a simple soul, so I haven't read some of the detailed posts above.  Got myself a new monitor so thought I'd try a sim or two, now that I 'race' very rarely.  Found this mod and the excellent track pack - I really like it  :)

#30 Lord

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Posted Nov 03 2014 - 02:16 PM

View PostTurboMan, on Oct 08 2014 - 12:40 PM, said:

Sorry for the off-topic, i'd like to ask if the F1 '65 mod works on GTR2?
I assume it doesn't, so is someone working on any conversion or are there plans to do it?

Best regards :)

Actually no, we aren't planning a GTR2 (or any SIMBIN title for that matter) because of time costraints: of the original team we're pretty much just in three now: me, Flying Dutchman and Ozpata.
For sure I can tell you there is a new rF1 Version in the works: better 3D interiors and bodies, HD textures and some improvements on the physics, like better brake fade, suspension behaviour and overall car handling. Also, we're trying to get permission to convert the new Spa in development for GPL and give it a more distinct "1965 look".
We plan to finish this update soon enough.

After that, who knows? Personally I'd like to get this baby on AC once the sim gets the "Gold" status... being Italian myself, it's kinda obvious :D

View PostAysedasi, on Oct 13 2014 - 09:45 AM, said:

I'm a simple soul, so I haven't read some of the detailed posts above.  Got myself a new monitor so thought I'd try a sim or two, now that I 'race' very rarely.  Found this mod and the excellent track pack - I really like it  :)

Thanks man, we appreciate it :)




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