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Test Mod Version B00.0


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#1 brr

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Posted Aug 30 2010 - 08:58 AM

Here's the first version of the test mod, which currently has brake fade, tyre wear, temporary loss of grip when going off track, and pitstops allowing tyre changes and refueling. Please pay attention to the word "test" in "test mod": its not a finished mod, but instead a starting point to develop some new features. Expect many things not to work correctly, and don't expect "press this button to install" user-friendliness.

Unzip into the main GPL folder and read the instructions (README_TESTMOD_B00.txt).

There should be no danger to laptimes, included physics changes only make the cars slower, replays
cannot be opened in GPLRA (hopefully) and GPL saves laptimes into a mod-specific ini file.

Attached File  testmod_b000.zip   249.07K   406 downloads

In case of mod not starting and errors in the log: if you have 67patch installed, disable it while creating the test mod exe. This can be done by renaming the folder d:\sierra\gpl\mods\GEM+\gpl67 to, for example, d:\sierra\gpl\mods\GEM+\xyz (replace your own GPL install path in the example).

Edited by brr, Sep 21 2010 - 08:37 AM.


#2 ezechiel47

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Posted Aug 30 2010 - 10:57 AM

:thumbup:

Many thanks, Brr !
Going to try the stuff very soon and give some feedback.

EZ

#3 John Woods

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Posted Aug 30 2010 - 11:03 PM

Posted Image Posted Image

Well, what's next?
I guess now I'll have to pay more attention to the pits.
All the best, brr.

Edited by John Woods, Aug 30 2010 - 11:09 PM.


#4 brr

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Posted Aug 31 2010 - 12:45 AM

What's next is testing this version, especially checking that laptimes stay separate from 67 original.

Possible updates in the next major version (B01):
- modified grip (slightly higher overall, and relatively higher at low speeds)
- sound

#5 identiti_crisis

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Posted Sep 01 2010 - 06:54 AM

I'm not sure if we are to post our impressions here, or only bug reports, but I had a quick go and my first impressions are very good indeed!

I had an issue with the '67 patch (I assume: gpl threw "error code: 9"), and don't know how to uninstall it; luckily I had an older install kicking about.

I've posted some pics of graphs I took from the log file, after about 10 or so laps with the keyboard at Kyalami in the Whale, including a crash or two. :D
For those that are interested in the mod itself:
The graphs show the inner brake temperature, surface brake temperature, brake "fade" figure (actually inverted, logically speaking), and tyre "wear" (inverted, scaled to 0% "wear" = 90% actual condition.)
I don't use pribluda, and wouldn't know how to log it anway, so no tyre temps; sorry.

  • Point 1: I was just faffing on the pit-straight up to this point, trying to deliberately damage the suspension.  I get repaired and out on track.
  • Point 2: I go off under braking at turn one (stupid keyboard), and lose my front left.  Brake temps soar as I crawl back to the pits.
  • Point 3: Repairs start, finishing at...
  • Point 4: Brake temps drop slightly as I get up to speed for the first corner, where I get a slight yaw under braking.  The brakes are now warm enough, so the fade figure hovers around ~100%
  • Afterwards, the temperatures gradually keep rising, looking to settle out at 275 °C internal.  Fade is also a minor issue into the first corner now.  I finally drop off the circuit again after 5 laps, at the first corner (again...)

I should probably try to run for longer, if I can get the consistency on the 'board.  Know also that my setup wasn't very keyboard friendly, so I had lots of under-steer.
I was lapping at about 1' 31", with no spins; this, combined with the braking "help", probably mitigates some of the fade.
I'm missing the effective brake balance here, which changes according to the differential in (average?) temperature fore and aft.  As the brakes are warming up, since the fronts warm up faster, the effective balance is further forward (61 - nice, on cold tyres :)) - it settles on the setup figure (57) once the brakes are warmed through.

Sorry about the colours - it looked fine in MATLAB :wacko:

Attached Files


Edited by identiti_crisis, Sep 01 2010 - 07:11 AM.


#6 summerski

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Posted Sep 01 2010 - 08:09 AM

Pretty work BRR. As always there'll be a few purest that might not fancy this but I think it's a major step in the right direction. Keep up the good work. Can't wait for your sound update. THANKS!!!!

#7 M Needforspeed

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Posted Sep 01 2010 - 08:19 AM

View Postidentiti_crisis, on Sep 01 2010 - 06:54 AM, said:

I'm not sure if we are to post our impressions here, or only bug reports, but I had a quick go and my first impressions are very good indeed!

I had an issue with the '67 patch (I assume: gpl threw "error code: 9"), and don't know how to uninstall it; luckily I had an older install kicking about.

I've posted some pics of graphs I took from the log file, after about 10 or so laps with the keyboard at Kyalami in the Whale, including a crash or two. :D
For those that are interested in the mod itself:
The graphs show the inner brake temperature, surface brake temperature, brake "fade" figure (actually inverted, logically speaking), and tyre "wear" (inverted, scaled to 0% "wear" = 90% actual condition.)
I don't use pribluda, and wouldn't know how to log it anway, so no tyre temps; sorry.

  • Point 1: I was just faffing on the pit-straight up to this point, trying to deliberately damage the suspension.  I get repaired and out on track.
  • Point 2: I go off under braking at turn one (stupid keyboard), and lose my front left.  Brake temps soar as I crawl back to the pits.
  • Point 3: Repairs start, finishing at...
  • Point 4: Brake temps drop slightly as I get up to speed for the first corner, where I get a slight yaw under braking.  The brakes are now warm enough, so the fade figure hovers around ~100%
  • Afterwards, the temperatures gradually keep rising, looking to settle out at 275 °C internal.  Fade is also a minor issue into the first corner now.  I finally drop off the circuit again after 5 laps, at the first corner (again...)

I should probably try to run for longer, if I can get the consistency on the 'board.  Know also that my setup wasn't very keyboard friendly, so I had lots of under-steer.
I was lapping at about 1' 31", with no spins; this, combined with the braking "help", probably mitigates some of the fade.
I'm missing the effective brake balance here, which changes according to the differential in (average?) temperature fore and aft.  As the brakes are warming up, since the fronts warm up faster, the effective balance is further forward (61 - nice, on cold tyres :)) - it settles on the setup figure (57) once the brakes are warmed through.

Sorry about the colours - it looked fine in MATLAB :wacko:

Thks for the graphs... but sorry , giving your feelings when playing with a keyboard doesn't look right for testing physics, taking into account they are on a first step and beta stage.

michel

Edited by M Needforspeed, Sep 01 2010 - 08:20 AM.


#8 brr

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Posted Sep 01 2010 - 09:05 AM

View Postidentiti_crisis, on Sep 01 2010 - 06:54 AM, said:

I'm not sure if we are to post our impressions here, or only bug reports, but I had a quick go and my first impressions are very good indeed!

Please do post feedback here, thanks for testing.

identiti_crisis said:

I had an issue with the '67 patch (I assume: gpl threw "error code: 9"), and don't know how to uninstall it; luckily I had an older install kicking about.

I was unaware of that problem when posting the mod. The mod has to be based on version 1.2.0.2 since that's the version I have enough information on to be able to develop on. I assumed that GEM+ always has the option of using the original, but it seems 67 patch prevents this for some reason. Maybe some GEM+ expert can suggest an easy workaround. Otherwise one has to uninstall the 67 patch, or make another install as you mention.

identiti_crisis said:

I'm missing the effective brake balance here, which changes according to the differential in (average?) temperature fore and aft.

The effective brake balance is based on maximum available braking power of each brake and is 100%*(front left+front right)/(fl+fr+rl+rr).

#9 identiti_crisis

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Posted Sep 01 2010 - 09:10 AM

View PostM Needforspeed, on Sep 01 2010 - 08:19 AM, said:


Thks for the graphs... but sorry , giving your feelings when playing with a keyboard doesn't look right for testing physics, taking into account they are on a first step and beta stage.

michel

Are you saying the opinion of a keyboard driver isn't valid? :P

I posted the graphs to show the detail that this mod has incorporated - e.g. "heat flux" modeling apparently based on vehicle speed (and wheel speed?), how "fade" seems to be mapped directly to the brake power, so when the brakes are too hot or too cold they have a lower fade value.  I'm showing that it is clearly not a half-arsed attempt - for example, the yaw was a surprise to me, but is explainable by the numbers and, more importantly, makes sense.  I posted enough information that the graphs should speak for themselves, and will be (more easily) comparable to any others that might get posted, because of the extra info I gave.

Of course it'll require tweaking, and I know it's a beta.  Some people do drive with the keyboard exclusively - I don't normally - and (in this thread at least) we're yet to see if there's an appreciable difference between wheel and keyboard users, relative to the "normal" '67s.  I thought my feedback might be useful to this end.
I didn't once comment on the "feel" of the physics, so please take the information for what it is, not what you thought I was trying to pass it off as.  I might well have missed any prior discussion about the modeling technique, or closed testing etc., so my post may not have been necessary.

Perhaps brr could suggest some sort of standard for our feedback, or confirm whether keyboarders are going to be neglected / ignored?  Or whether any cross-controller comparisons are actually necessary for further development.

#10 brr

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Posted Sep 01 2010 - 09:10 AM

View PostM Needforspeed, on Sep 01 2010 - 08:19 AM, said:

Thks for the graphs... but sorry , giving your feelings when playing with a keyboard doesn't look right for testing physics, taking into account they are on a first step and beta stage.

michel

There has been very little testing so far, so I think this data is useful. For example, the brake temps ended up higher than I would have expected in 10 laps, perhaps because Honda is quite heavy.

#11 identiti_crisis

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Posted Sep 01 2010 - 09:25 AM

View Postbrr, on Sep 01 2010 - 09:10 AM, said:



There has been very little testing so far, so I think this data is useful. For example, the brake temps ended up higher than I would have expected in 10 laps, perhaps because Honda is quite heavy.

In that case, I might run a few laps in the other cars to compare.  How is it best to present the information?
It's also possible I had a full tank; I think I was using a default setup.

Edited by identiti_crisis, Sep 01 2010 - 09:26 AM.


#12 brr

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Posted Sep 01 2010 - 09:36 AM

View Postidentiti_crisis, on Sep 01 2010 - 09:25 AM, said:

View Postbrr, on Sep 01 2010 - 09:10 AM, said:



There has been very little testing so far, so I think this data is useful. For example, the brake temps ended up higher than I would have expected in 10 laps, perhaps because Honda is quite heavy.

In that case, I might run a few laps in the other cars to compare.  How is it best to present the information?
It's also possible I had a full tank; I think I was using a default setup.

The graphs are quite useful together with the car, fuel load, and setup brake bias.
Any impressions about the car behaviour are useful as well, for example how long it takes to really notice the tyre wear, or when braking becomes more difficult due to overheating brakes.

My own testing was originally just with Lotus at Monza, and I even ended up tuning the brake fade parameters with a simple brake simulator. The current parameter values should be reasonably good, and actually your graphs suggest just that.

#13 Roo

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Posted Sep 01 2010 - 12:49 PM

I'm currently unable to drive as I'm moving house but I'm watching this thread like a hawk.
Keep up the testing & posting &, brr,  :thumbup:

#14 identiti_crisis

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Posted Sep 01 2010 - 04:10 PM

OK, so more keyboard impressions.

I took the Cooper out on Kyalami, using the default setup: 57% bias, 46 gallons (full tank), for 15 laps plus one.
It seemed easier to slow down than the Honda, and was generally much easier to drive.

A few things I noticed on this run:
  • I'm probably braking for far too long into every corner, largely because trail braking is nearly impossible with the keyboard.
  • I'm very slow out of the last corner, so my top speed on the straight is probably a touch low.
  • I'm beginning to think the keyboard provides an interesting case, since the brakes will never overwhelm the tyres, and the maximum braking force is potentially lower than without braking "help" - whether it's enough to offset the longer braking times is doubtful, but we should verify somehow.
  • The first corner on lap 15 (second last) gave me the first hint the tyres were a bit duff.  Later that lap, I was struggling already with understeer.  Lap 16 was worse.

Here are the graphs:
(Inner, surface, fade, wear.)

Attached Files


Edited by identiti_crisis, Sep 01 2010 - 04:25 PM.


#15 identiti_crisis

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Posted Sep 01 2010 - 04:23 PM

I'll post this separately to avoid confusion.

I then tried the Eagle at Kyalami, but couldn't get on with the first corner braking.
So I tried the Ferrari instead, again at Kyalami using default setup: 57% bias, 46 gallons, for 14 laps, plus one (I can't count!)

This time the effect of the brake bias shift was very apparent, and the Ferrari suddenly came alive once the brakes had warmed up, with that characteristic wag of the tail.
I also better noticed the dirt effects; they seem to last just long enough to make the turn in that bit slippier, but it soon scrubs off, which is nice.
I didn't notice any tyre wear issues until halfway through the last lap (lap 15), where under-steer crept in at the hairpin.

I probably couldn't drive much longer than 15 laps on one set of tyres, given the horrid under-steer on the default setups (with the keyboard); if it would be of any benefit, I could run a stint of 15, change the tyres and set off for a second stint.

Here are the graphs, same as above; they look remarkably similar, apart from stopping short of 16 laps...

Attached Files


Edited by identiti_crisis, Sep 01 2010 - 04:25 PM.


#16 M Needforspeed

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Posted Sep 01 2010 - 05:08 PM

..let 's go with the keyboard affair.Thank you for the others tests, and your impressions and data collection.

I read your graphs. What is the tyre wear percentage ?

  I don 't want to interfere between you and Brr, as you are the only that posted results so far and thank for that..

But one thing I am sure as well as those who worked on carsets physics, is the real Tyres had a very hard compound in the sixties. I have many different countries period mags reports of F1 and F2 races from 1967 .If I cross all the infos on Tyres,the global rule was:

- One or two compound for a team in one given race.Many teams sharing the same compound.

- No Tyres changes for all the event was frequent.Tyres used both for practice and race was seen on many rounds.

-Drivers got their best laps time toward the end of the race.Tyres kept their efficiency all along the race, except on some tracks.Tyre wear was linked more to the driver style, when  noticable, than from track shapes or chassis. Rindt, for instance, was very demanding on tyres on street courses, with his countersteering driving style.

in fact, racing tyres  where still in their infancy, compared with today standards.


not a critic, I ' ll like to know what Brr think can be a reasonable scaling for putting values on tyre wear

#17 Bob Simpson

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Posted Sep 01 2010 - 05:25 PM

Since keyboard driving means that you must use brake help, or essentially anti-lock brakes, you can't give them a real torture test.  I don't have time to test this mod myself, but it would be interesting to see what happens with the brakes engaged constantly or at least when the throttle is still applying power in corners as it is with some GPL alien drivers.

#18 John Woods

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Posted Sep 01 2010 - 05:55 PM

identiti_crisis,

Could you please offer a detailed comphrehensive methodology so others can do exactly what you are doing and generate comparable results?

There have always been (at least) two schools of thought with Grand Prix Legends enthusiasts: "traditionalists" who prefer replicating a particular season as exactly as possible, and "futurist realists" who want to pursue ultimate development of simulation experience. I think neither can survive without the other, together they have assured longevity of Grand Prix Legends, and both groups should learn to live with it or maybe start another thread, on which I will happily support both views.

#19 identiti_crisis

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Posted Sep 01 2010 - 06:22 PM

View PostM Needforspeed, on Sep 01 2010 - 05:08 PM, said:

..let 's go with the keyboard affair.Thank you for the others tests, and your impressions and data collection.

I read your graphs. What is the tyre wear percentage ?

  I don 't want to interfere between you and Brr, as you are the only that posted results so far and thank for that..

But one thing I am sure as well as those who worked on carsets physics, is the real Tyres had a very hard compound in the sixties. I have many different countries period mags reports of F1 and F2 races from 1967 .If I cross all the infos on Tyres,the global rule was:

- One or two compound for a team in one given race.Many teams sharing the same compound.

- No Tyres changes for all the event was frequent.Tyres used both for practice and race was seen on many rounds.

-Drivers got their best laps time toward the end of the race.Tyres kept their efficiency all along the race, except on some tracks.Tyre wear was linked more to the driver style, when  noticable, than from track shapes or chassis. Rindt, for instance, was very demanding on tyres on street courses, with his countersteering driving style.

in fact, racing tyres  where still in their infancy, compared with today standards.


not a critic, I ' ll like to know what Brr think can be a reasonable scaling for putting values on tyre wear

The tyre wear is actually tyre "condition", scaled to 90%: (condition - 90) * 10
The readme states that it's a bit simplistic at this stage (probably evident from the linear wear rates).

The tyres, as they stand in this mod, are definitely too soft to be comparable to the real life '67 cars.  But I'm not sure what the ultimate goal is - this is just a test mod that just happens to be based on the '67s, for simplicity's sake :)

View PostBob Simpson, on Sep 01 2010 - 05:25 PM, said:

Since keyboard driving means that you must use brake help, or essentially anti-lock brakes, you can't give them a real torture test.  I don't have time to test this mod myself, but it would be interesting to see what happens with the brakes engaged constantly or at least when the throttle is still applying power in corners as it is with some GPL alien drivers.

Yes, but to complicate things further, it's like no ABS system on earth, in that the applied brake power is seemingly progressively scaled according to available grip, so that the tyre never begins to lock up at all (unlike normal ABS, or the ideal case of some percentage slip for optimal traction.)
On the other hand, assuming there's no dodgy left-foot braking going on, the absence of braking help allows for marginally shorter braking times (owing to the higher average braking force) and hence more heat rejected to the air, rather than soaked into the disc.  Look at the difference between the surface spikes and the internal spikes.

We really need somebody to test this with an analogue brake, since the (numerical) balance cannot simply be inferred!

EDIT:

View PostJohn Woods, on Sep 01 2010 - 05:55 PM, said:

identiti_crisis,

Could you please offer a detailed comphrehensive methodology so others can do exactly what you are doing and generate comparable results?

There have always been (at least) two schools of thought with Grand Prix Legends enthusiasts: "traditionalists" who prefer replicating a particular season as exactly as possible, and "futurist realists" who want to pursue ultimate development of simulation experience. I think neither can survive without the other, together they have assured longevity of Grand Prix Legends, and both groups should learn to live with it or maybe start another thread, on which I will happily support both views.

I boot the game, choose a car, then the circuit, drive for as many laps as I can without breaking the car on the default (Papy) setup using the keyboard.  I'm slow as it is, but even more so on the 'board - about 1' 28" around Kyalami, today.  I have the odd excursion, usually minor since the car is uncontrollable on the grass and usually ends up in broken parts - there's also the odd half-spin from over-exuberant "flicking" due to the inherent inaccuracy of the keyboard - both of these are visible in the data I've posted, for the eagle-eyed.  I brake mostly in a straight line and early-ish, too, since the braking "help" won't let you brake into the corner, not that you could catch the oversteer easily anyway...

I don't know that copying my style exactly is what we need at this point.  Variety is probably more important; that everyone can drive according to their usual habits is most important. Let's try to "break" it :P
Of course, brr knows what's best for his productivity.


Here's an example of braking into the first corner; blue is internal temperature, green is surface - and there is the (almost imperceptible) expected lag.

Attached Files


Edited by identiti_crisis, Sep 01 2010 - 06:33 PM.


#20 John Woods

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Posted Sep 01 2010 - 08:36 PM

identiti_crisis,

I meant, how do you go from data generation, as you explained above, (and I agree we all best have our own way of doing that), to presenting results with all these nifty graphs? Is there a utility that reads selected data and makes them? Is this part of the test mod? That would truly blow me away, but I'd want to use it with all of Grand Prix Legends OEM-version and mods.




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