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V.R. Metaphysical Aesthetics


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#61 John Woods

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Posted Aug 28 2017 - 02:48 PM

Sort of just a housekeeping update...too late to edit above post.

Plus this is new...


Infinity is a variable of a generic 4D straight line net within which the racing line between nodal points is established by consequence of circumstance at any moment. So while the basic points are conveniently diagrammed with the typical 2D diagram of a 90deg turn, for any and all turns the net is stretched by parameter definition, (to reveal maybe a Broc curve or P-curve?), and set with certainty the minimum line between the driver and a specific point on the far side of any turn.

It is a net that is mentally projected across the driver's view ahead like an overlay in motion.

The lines are not measured because only the locations of nodal points are significant.
Cars ahead are nodal points and relationships between them are absolute regardless of speed or distance.

When a racing car is "in slip" and on the edge of maximum lateral load the reality of its line more closely reflects the purity of the ideal, such as a certain most efficient trajectory, whether named or not...as it seems in skiing, sailing, flying, surfing, skateboarding...simracing.

:D

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Edited by John Woods, Sep 21 2017 - 07:53 AM.


#62 John Woods

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Posted Nov 07 2017 - 10:15 AM

The housekeeping update referred to in the above post is for the pic in the prior post.
:)

And here is sort of done with it something new...just trying to figure it out.



:D

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#63 Brocky05

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Posted Nov 07 2017 - 04:54 PM

mummy my brain hurts hehe

#64 Warren Hall Jr.

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Posted Nov 08 2017 - 05:18 PM

I think John's saying the fastest way through a turn is the longest way.

#65 John Woods

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Posted Nov 11 2017 - 12:41 PM

I know what I'm saying?
It is still as its always been questions and guesses.

Do agree the longest line, (widest arc that touches inside edge of track), is in theory at constant speed the fastest line thru a flat 90deg turn. Do know from reading Paul Frere the racing line is the line of least resistance.

From very very little understanding of the physics of the lines made by things like Earthly projectiles on piloted or not trajectories, given magnitudes that exceed 1:1 steering capability, while near maximum lateral load, well into slip, (leading edge tire distortion), with the wheel held steady, that weight balanced asymmetrically will control the direction of a car, and by anticipation and throttle, a driver may determine it's line exactly.

The apex of the racing line is the point along the car's line of travel when/where the sprung weight quits moving out and before it begins its return to center.

Ideally weight should shift out only once and return to center only once per turn.
It should be the minimum off center shift of weight.

The car goes where it has to go.


Thanks for your comments btw.
:D

Edited by John Woods, Nov 12 2017 - 06:57 AM.


#66 John Woods

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Posted Jan 16 2018 - 12:36 PM

This isn't questions and guesses...

Below are pics of two pages from Jim Clark at the wheel, by Jim Clark, Pocketbook edition 1966.
Altogether, this is sort of a melancholy read btw and a struggle to get thru.
Sorry it is difficult to hold and focus camera while trying to not hurt the book.

Its where he describes how he takes a corner.

Earlier he comments that while there might be a technically correct line that each driver takes their own line and that his and Graham Hill's approach, apex, and exit were very different.

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Edited by John Woods, Jan 16 2018 - 07:42 PM.


#67 John Woods

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Posted Feb 16 2018 - 08:17 AM

Just finished reading Graham, by Graham Hill with Neil Ewart,  Arrow Books, c. 1977.

Not as sad and foreboding as Jim Clark At the Wheel. Graham seems a happy camper pretty much with only a few mentions of the mortal risk so predominant in racing back then.

Like the Clark book, not much about in-car racing technique however. Here is the only bit of it:

"If you're chasing the leaders without making much impression, you just go flat out the whole time. You can achieve your top speed along the straights, of course, but when it comes to the corners you try to gain valuable seconds or fractions of seconds by making straights out of them. If we had to go round corners on fixed railway lines which followed the curves we'd lose a lot of time. We don't have to, thank goodness, so we're able to use all the road by starting the corner wide and then drifting the car through under accelerating power so that we clip the apex of the corner and continue the drift to the outside of the corner, nicely placed to enter the next straight. By using these tactics we've straightened out the corner and got through quicker. The technique of drifting calls for a very delicate balancing operation on the part of the driver in the use of throttle to control the power through the rear wheels, and the steering wheel to control the front wheels to maintain the car in the required angle and direction, and get through the corner in the minimum of time."

He spent almost as many words detailing his pre-race routine and preference for a nice bath the evening before a race.

1st pic; Graham in an F3, (no date or place).
2nd pic: (left to right), Dan Gurney, Jack Brabham, Bruce McLaren, Richie Ginther, Denny Hulme, Jochen Rindt, (no date or place). Pretty sure the guy on the far right is Graham Hill, but the book doesn't say.


:D

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Edited by John Woods, Feb 16 2018 - 09:12 AM.


#68 Pete Gaimari

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Posted Feb 18 2018 - 09:20 AM

Since the Air Force trains fighter pilots on a simulator. Formula One teams train the drivers on simulators. Nascar does the same thing. I believe all auto pro racing teams train on simulators. I believe there has to be a certain amount of reality in driving simulators. To some degree, it teaches you all the skills you need to drive/fly the car/plane. It can certainly each you a race track and what line to take. It can teach you where to shift, where to brake and accelerate on the track. It builds muscle memory for driving the real car.

The better the simulator. The closer you drive in a realistic manner. The closer to reality.

#69 John Woods

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Posted Mar 06 2018 - 09:15 AM

View PostPete Gaimari, on Feb 18 2018 - 09:20 AM, said:

I believe there has to be a certain amount of reality in driving simulators.

The better the simulator. The closer you drive in a realistic manner. The closer to reality.


Yes absolutely no doubt.
Thanks Pete for making these points.
This is entirely what sustains my interest in Grand Prix Legends.
The racing history and amazing art is icing on the cake.


The pics are from Piero Taruffi's The Technique of Motor Racing.
When you read all the other books, they all refer to this one.

It is often noted the fastest way thru a flat 90deg turn is on the line that coincides with the largest arc that begins on the outside edge of the track, touches the inside edge at the geometric apex, and exits touching the outside edge again.

Taruffi demonstrates this approach results in slower lap times because time gained in the corners will be lost on the straights.
Faster lap times are the result of achieving maximum speed on straights.
To do this, you have to "cheat the corner," or as Graham Hill suggests, turn them into straights.

Notice point Z? Its past the geometric apex.

Anyway...here's the drawing where its all pretty much sewed up.
(From this point on, the discussion is about banked turns and other special cases).

Taruffi does not explain, when mentioning the importance of going off throttle, that going completely off throttle puts the diff into coast which "swings the rear out" and that, (as I understand), it is primarily diff and shock settings that effect this critical motion, (while springs and bars set the limits).
Notice he does emphasize simultaneous symmetrical countersteer to maintain slip angle and intended driving line.



:D

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Edited by John Woods, Mar 07 2018 - 12:08 PM.


#70 John Woods

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Posted Mar 07 2018 - 12:19 PM

Very few words on driving technique, from Fangio A Perilli Album by Stirling Moss, c1991.

Also a bit of thrill as he describes how, at the Ring in 1957, during his chase to retake the lead, he took the "swerves" under the bridge at the end of the long straight.




:D

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Edited by John Woods, Mar 08 2018 - 02:28 PM.


#71 Pete Gaimari

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Posted Mar 17 2018 - 09:28 AM

Bravery beyond imagination.

#72 JonnyA

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Posted Mar 17 2018 - 09:34 AM

John, I just bought the Taruffi book because the bit you posted looked good. I'm really enjoying it, so many thanks!

#73 John Woods

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Posted Mar 18 2018 - 09:35 AM

JonnyA, you're welcome.
Thanks for posting.

Its an amazing book that seems to leave out no detail.
Think I've been thru it at least 3 maybe 4 or 5 times now?

Its a happy moment, hope you will agree, when reading part of it and thinking, yes, Grand Prix Legends already taught me that. Nice to have at least some little bit of what I think I know confirmed by the expert authority.

Taruffi tho takes it all a lot farther than I imagined.


Pete, sure you agree we are lucky to have Shift-R after trying to take the swerve under the bridge and over the dip flat out. I'm good for that working maybe one out of three tries.
Figure Fangio was doing around 180mph at that point?
Also it was late in the race and some fatigue along with oil and dirt on goggles likely made driving a lot more difficult.

So yes, truly incredible.



:D

Edited by John Woods, Mar 18 2018 - 09:59 AM.


#74 JonnyA

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Posted Mar 18 2018 - 10:25 AM

John, it's surprising how well what I learn in GPL is confirmed by Taruffi.

Still don't like his line into Hugenholtz though!

#75 John Woods

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Posted Mar 19 2018 - 06:07 PM

View PostJonnyA, on Mar 18 2018 - 10:25 AM, said:

Still don't like his line into Hugenholtz though!

In Grand Prix Legends its a good line if you are passing under braking but otherwise its hard to get up the hill that follows.

Actually take it and Tarzan more like arena supercross riders than like Taruffi suggests...staying outside a little longer and getting a better run up the hill, more like the line he suggests for banked ovals.

Probably because real track back then was cambered differently and/or crowned and GPL version is not?
Or maybe he's got it right?

In attached, Taruffi recommended line, (close enough), is in red and my idea of very late clipping point, in green, to get most time accelerating up hill and most speed before Jan de Wijker. (Now looking at the drawing all finished and posted up think my line typically makes a wider arc, more on the outside at entry and exit).

With no traffic, the goal is one entry and one exit, all one safe motion with minimum loss of speed, minimum time in constant radius, and maximum time for exit?



:D

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Edited by John Woods, Mar 20 2018 - 03:25 PM.


#76 Pete Gaimari

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Posted Mar 20 2018 - 03:29 PM

Yeah, John. Blind turns are hard enough, but when we're going that fast there's no room for error. Turn in late or early and we're in trouble.

#77 JonnyA

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Posted Mar 20 2018 - 03:56 PM

I find it difficult to get all the way across to the RHS of the track after Gerlach, but I do my best because I find it gives me room to brake nice and deep into Hugenholtz which makes it easier to rotate the car. For Tarzan and Hugenholtz, over time my line has got deeper with a much later apex - all focussed on getting onto the throttle ASAP. If I used Taruffi's line into Hugenholtz I think I'd end up parked on the apex at about 0 mph!

But as you say, GPL Zandvoort and real Zandvoort may be rather different beasts.

#78 Saiph

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Posted Mar 20 2018 - 07:58 PM

Most of the driving advice I've seen in the past says that it's always the exit of a series of bends which should take priority, as good exit speed leads to better speed on the following straight. So to get the best line and speed up the hill towards Hunserug, you need a good exit from Hugenholtz. To get a good exit from Hugenholtz, you need a good entry, with a late apex to get on the power early. To get a good entry into Hugenholtz, you need to get over to the right after Gerlacht. That means that you may have to go through Gerlacht a bit slower to give you time to get the car over to the right-hand side. The time you lose compromising your speed and line through Gerlacht should be more than made up for by the better exit and better speed between Hugenholtz and Hunserug. At least that's how the theory goes. :D I always try to drive according to that ideal, but sometimes it's not easy!

#79 John Woods

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Posted Mar 25 2018 - 09:16 PM

It would  be interesting to see some of the driving lines GPLRA reveals the WR challengers have made from Tarzan to Jan de Wilker.

My preference seems to be exiting Tarzan on the inside and staying to the right up to the crest at the bend to the left, almost in a straight line from entry before the crest to entry to Gerlacht, crossing over to the left side to clip the bend at the crest, so after the crest the car is on the outside for entry to Gerlacht.

If a driver rather goes to the outside exiting Tarzan and does not cross over to the right before the crest, after the crest they will likely be on the inside approaching Gerlacht, forcing them to slow before climbing the little rise that precedes the short straight down to Hugenholtz.

In contrast, landing on the left side of the track after cresting at the bend places the car ready to take the maximum arc thru Gerlacht, possibly with less incline to overcome, and the option at exit of choosing any entry point to Hugenholtz.

Once there, Taruffi's suggested line offers the opportunity to apply constant radius around the extreme track camber close on the inside thru the turn...which actually seems a good enough line that takes less time in the turn even tho the car slows to 45 or so MPH.

The problem is the hill that follows. So far glimpsing a few times at the speedo up near its crest reveals a rough guess that taking Taruffi's line is about 5-10mph slower at that point than my erratic late wide apex guess of the fastest average exit speed thru the turn.

Which line is faster overall? I have no idea.

Lately been running consistent 1:27s in the 67LotusF1 with 14-lap fuel load down to a few 1:25s when the car lightens up, (just saying so you know, for me its all about style not being fast...because I'm not, plus daydreaming a lot).

Edit: Well, hm...now uncertain exactly where Gerlach is and how to spell it. Going by the GPL Program Menu track map comments above might be confusing, or the track map is, (which I figure its not).



:D

Edited by John Woods, Mar 26 2018 - 01:39 PM.


#80 John Woods

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Posted May 12 2018 - 09:51 AM

Being too easily distracted its been awhile now since touring Zandy. It is certainly possible to very quickly get thru Hugenholtz by inducing a constant radius line similar to the line Taruffi diagrams.

So quick for me its really too quick and easy to take it way too far around.

In the meantime, yet again, here is another incomplete fantasy about what Taruffi et al describe regarding how to place all four tires in slip, sustaining maximum lateral load on the line of least resistance, and therefore taking the quickest route thru a turn.

Questions and guesses...

hm grumble edit: already see need to make changes for sake of clarity, (not content, yet), so current drawing is here as placeholder.



:D

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Edited by John Woods, May 12 2018 - 12:15 PM.





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