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Handless Gear Changes


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#1 Tobodestroyer2020

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Posted May 17 2020 - 03:14 AM

I've meant to ask this for ages. Whilst watching GPL laps on YouTube I see cars changing gears whilst both hands are firmly on the steering wheel. How come? Driving by osmosis?

#2 Cookie

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Posted May 17 2020 - 03:29 AM

No, captured from replay ;)

#3 Saiph

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Posted May 17 2020 - 03:46 AM

If you save any of your own laps as replays, you will see the same thing happening when you view the playback. When you look at the cockpit view, you will see the gear shift moving, but your hands won't move to the gear lever. It's just one of the 'quirks' of GPL.

#4 Millennium

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Posted May 17 2020 - 03:58 AM

There's also no camera movement in onboard replays.

#5 Cookie

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Posted May 17 2020 - 04:26 AM

Ah no!

Afaik with fairshift you also see no hands moving to lever!

#6 Tobodestroyer2020

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Posted May 17 2020 - 12:03 PM

Thanks. I can't believe that I've never noticed this before in replays. I haven't tried Fairshift as I'm not too sure why I'd need it or what it does. I use GPLShift with G27 wheel and Fanatec pedals and I always use the clutch.

#7 Cookie

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Posted May 17 2020 - 12:53 PM

Fairshift makes a shifting with shifter and no clutch lasting 0.222sec as with the paddles. I know people shifting with clutch+shifter in 0.066 sec ;)

#8 M Needforspeed

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Posted May 18 2020 - 01:04 PM

View PostCookie, on May 17 2020 - 12:53 PM, said:

Fairshift makes a shifting with shifter and no clutch lasting 0.222sec as with the paddles. I know people shifting with clutch+shifter in 0.066 sec ;)
interesting Axel

to me, if it allows 0.222 sec, it makes racing with those using paddles equitable, but then this program is cheating with RL...

0.066 sec !!! ...What shifter and clutch are they using ? Does the material allows for cheating ?

With the Act Labs RS + clutch + GPLshift I really can't see how I wld change gear on such short laps of time, even with the aligned gears. I certainly suffer from an unknown arthritis in my wrist. I have the feeling shifting takes much more time ( but maybe I am wrong..), and that's what I like when racing.
The Act Labs range of movement of the gear lever is quite long, and it can be a factor.It ain't longer than Ferraris F1 grid of the sixties .Clutch pedal travel displacement isn't far from various sixties racing cars I have been sitting in.

I set  the pedal displacement  at 80 % in gplshift to allow the gear change.

Can I get the data on my shifting speed  with GPL replay analyzer ?

Edited by M Needforspeed, May 18 2020 - 02:06 PM.


#9 Cookie

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Posted May 18 2020 - 03:07 PM

Yes you can,

You can not find a proof of the clutch is used, but I know drivers that are 100% trustworthy.

Tim Muttram assured me he is using clutch for every gearchange and he had the best shifting times I ever saw.
But the last time he raced with UKGPL was 02.2019 and my server rpy only go back to 07.2019... :hithead:

Here you see the shifting without clutch...  
What makes a difference to 0.222 of accelerating ~1.5sec per lap! You are in neutral when he is accelerating...

Attached Files


Edited by Cookie, May 18 2020 - 03:12 PM.


#10 FMAlchemist

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Posted May 18 2020 - 04:35 PM

Hi everyone,

I've been using clutch and H shifter for the past 7-8 years. All my shifting times are consistently faster than 0.222s. Some may think that this is an unfair advantage, but for me unfair advantage is being able to paddle shift while going through the corner.

It took a LOT of practice for me to be able to do heel and toe correctly. I mean years of practice. Now I am able to handle manual gear shifting of cars like the Lotus 98T from Assetto Corsa, that requires a tremendously fast gear change. And in GPL, it is much more realistic than 0.222s paddle shifting.

#11 Cookie

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Posted May 18 2020 - 06:27 PM

I do admire the real thing - Clutch and H shifting,

But when you race with paddles you will never make a shift in the acceleration out of a corner...

I was asking how comes when I race with a guy in Monza in the same car he is accelerating much better out of Lesmo2 and Para.
I found the answer in GPLRA he is gaining seconds of acceleration by  not using the clutch.
Some leagues do some don't forbit it. I just became better ;)
And I found when some guys broke their shifter they became midfield drivers...

Here the winner with paddles

#12 Cookie

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Posted May 18 2020 - 06:34 PM

And here is the winner with Paddles, less shifts and no speedshifts!

Attached Files


Edited by Cookie, May 18 2020 - 06:36 PM.


#13 FMAlchemist

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Posted May 18 2020 - 07:15 PM

View PostCookie, on May 18 2020 - 06:27 PM, said:


But when you race with paddles you will never make a shift in the acceleration out of a corner...


I'd really like to know how you drive through Parabolica without shifting up.

Anyway, I was referring to downshifts. When I approach a corner I have to take a hand off the wheel, take the right fooot off the gas, put it half on the brake and half on the gas to modulate and avoid diff locking while my left foot is working on the clutch. All that controlling the car with just one hand (specially in corners where you have to go from 5th to 1st or 2nd). Then I release the stick, put my hand back on the wheel and sliding my foot back to the gas, and THEN enter the corner.

If you use paddles, all you have to do is modulate the brake and gas with both feet (much easier), you always have full control of the wheel with both hands, and you can brake a bit more into the corner while downshifting when the car is already transiting the first part of the corner.

If you consistently don't use the clutch diring a whole race, the pistons will go out for some fresh air sooner than later. They became midfield drivers temporarily. It is a totally different thing to go back to paddles once you get used to H shifter. Going the other way around (paddles to H shifter) it took me one year just to reach my times with paddles. On the other hand, I know people who play with keyboard that are faster that many people with paddles, H-shifter, etc.

#14 Cookie

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Posted May 19 2020 - 04:22 AM

Para braking shift down from 5th to 4 to 3  - then I accelerate  into straight! -> 4th ~50m after the left armco!

You can downshift from 5 to 3 for Para I  do 5-4-3 you win! (Mulsanne is worse for me 5-4-3-2-1 vs 5-1 for you!)

For Para braking I only have one foot on pedals! (load cell!)

You see in Imola Tim does 9 and H does 13 shifts...

No harm, some GPLShift versions enable no clutch H shifting without harming. (ask a specialist, I am not!)

BUT

I do admire guys doing the right thing!

I'm just too old for learning this (+70) :grumpy:
PS
I know Raoni ;)

Edited by Cookie, May 19 2020 - 11:22 AM.


#15 Michkov

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Posted May 19 2020 - 03:04 PM

View PostCookie, on May 18 2020 - 06:27 PM, said:

I do admire the real thing - Clutch and H shifting,

But when you race with paddles you will never make a shift in the acceleration out of a corner...

I was asking how comes when I race with a guy in Monza in the same car he is accelerating much better out of Lesmo2 and Para.
I found the answer in GPLRA he is gaining seconds of acceleration by  not using the clutch.
Some leagues do some don't forbit it. I just became better ;)
And I found when some guys broke their shifter they became midfield drivers...

Here the winner with paddles

Dogboxes dont require clutch use for upshifts, it's just lift and pop in a higher gear. Not sure how this would work for the Lotus with its ZF, but it's applicable for the Hewland boxes.

#16 Cookie

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Posted May 20 2020 - 05:28 AM

Thx Michi

I found this great article:
https://www.roadandt...racing-gearbox/

But I have no idea how to set it in GPLShift...

#17 FMAlchemist

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Posted May 20 2020 - 06:45 AM

View PostCookie, on May 19 2020 - 04:22 AM, said:

Para braking shift down from 5th to 4 to 3  - then I accelerate  into straight! -> 4th ~50m after the left armco!

You can downshift from 5 to 3 for Para I  do 5-4-3 you win! (Mulsanne is worse for me 5-4-3-2-1 vs 5-1 for you!)

For Para braking I only have one foot on pedals! (load cell!)

You see in Imola Tim does 9 and H does 13 shifts...

No harm, some GPLShift versions enable no clutch H shifting without harming. (ask a specialist, I am not!)

BUT

I do admire guys doing the right thing!

I'm just too old for learning this (+70) :grumpy:
PS
I know Raoni ;)

Your mistake is thinking that people who use H shifters downshift from 5th straight to 1st. That´s the best way of a- blowing up your engine and b- lose control of your car and crash. If you take a look at any real life on-board footage, race drivers shift down sequentially, not skipping any gear. Some may skip one gear, but just one.

In Parabolica, depending on the car, I shift up 1 or 2 gears before the end of the left armco. It gives the car better traction.

GPLshift does not prevent you from blowing up your engine if you over-rev it.


View PostCookie, on May 18 2020 - 03:07 PM, said:


What makes a difference to 0.222 of accelerating ~1.5sec per lap! You are in neutral when he is accelerating...

That is a misconception. Being 1.5 secs per lap on the throttle does not make you 1.5 seconds faster.



Basically, what annoys me from this topic, is that people who use H shifters are treated as cheaters because we trained and got to be faster than the pre-programmed time for paddles. We are not rail-riding or cutting corners. It is not unfair advantage. At least, that's the impression many of us have.

#18 Cookie

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Posted May 20 2020 - 07:52 AM

No you get me wrong!

I defend people who shift with H shifter, in UKGPL we decided to not use fairshift!

And I know what I say and you misinterprete:
"Being 1.5 secs per lap on the throttle does not make you 1.5 seconds faster." is what I am 100% with you!
but you lose less acceleration time in neutral!

Maybe I have to write in my native language...

5to1 is not a good example but I can show you lots of 5 -3 or 5-2 shifts...

Cheating is  imo misusing the shifting without clutch - and I know there are some
I know an Argentinian driver seaching for help to get a fairshift version with shorter shifting than 0.222 because his league opponents all do short shift times.
Get the World final replay and look in the analyzer...

Robert Fleurke and Keni Blood the fastest guys atm do paddles ;)

Edited by Cookie, May 20 2020 - 07:53 AM.


#19 GPLaps

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Posted May 20 2020 - 07:56 AM

That is why it is most realistic to record videos live :drive1:

#20 Lee200

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Posted May 20 2020 - 12:12 PM

This topic about gear shifting times got me interested in exploring the code to determine why there is a difference between using paddles and a shifter with or without a clutch.

So far, I can't find anything in the code that explains it.  :idunno:

The gear shifting code is very complicated as it uses several time delays during the shift.  For example, upshifts use a total of .51 seconds of which the transmission is in neutral for only .09 seconds.

Axel's Gear Change Analyser screenshots show a paddle user averaging  .22 seconds while a shifter without clutch averages only .11 seconds.  Supposedly, the analyser indicates the time in neutral so I can't explain why it is different unless it is actually measuring something else.

During upshifts, the code doesn't disconnect the clutch as it momentarily does during downshifts.

There is another section of code that handles the clutch and uses time delays and I will review that next.




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