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Is It Worth Setting Up The Clutch And H-Pattern?


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#21 Paddy the Irishman

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Posted Jan 11 2021 - 04:08 PM

My problem when I "upgraded" to H pattern and clutch was that the engagement of gears was the wrong way round.

In real ife,if the RPM is not correct for engagement, then one can not push the gear lever into the proper position and you get CRUNCH.

With Sim H pattern change, you depress the clutch, move the lever into position easily. release the clutch and  then - CRUNCH.

I have reverted to sequential gearshift

:dino:

#22 Tobodestroyer2020

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Posted Jan 13 2021 - 05:23 AM

Ultimately, do whatever makes you happy, but...

For the first ten years of GPL I drove with a Logitech Red MOMO wheel and just two pedals with flappy paddles. I loved it, but I knew that I was not being true to the '67 drivers. My laptimes were quick and I have a -40 something GPL rank which I acquired through left-foot trail braking to keep the car balanced. When I was learning to drive in RL, it was in a 1968 Hillman Imp. I learned to heel-toe, get the back end out and hold it in a slide. This is the experience that I wanted again in GPL.

So, ten years later I bought a G27 with H-shifter. I was much slower and I really didn't think I'd get used to it. But, Wow! So much more fun. It was like driving the Imp again. Very satisfying re-learning how to go fast in GPL. I only use the left-foot for the clutch so learning how to make the transition from throttle to brake and vice-versa is the tricky part. Listen to interviews with Jackie Stewart on Youtube as he gives some great advice on doing this.

I now feel that I am driving "properly" and I've stopped caring about hot-lapping. It's now about the driving and racing but occasionally I do beat my old lap-times and it's VERY satisfying doing so.

Take a look on Jani's website and you'll see that he's now added a feature so that you can see how other people drive. (Paddle/clutch/H-shifter etc.) I can see that the aliens all use paddles and left-foot brake so I don't even try to compete with them. I'm just in it to enjoy driving.

#23 twinpotter

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Posted Jan 13 2021 - 08:11 AM

I can't heel-toe not because I don't want to try but rather my standard g27 pedals seem too close and my feet get all tangled up and don't dab the correct pedal quick enough 🤔😂

So I have to stick to left foot braking.

TP:

#24 Roo

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Posted Jan 13 2021 - 09:57 AM

View PostPaddy the Irishman, on Jan 11 2021 - 04:08 PM, said:

My problem when I "upgraded" to H pattern and clutch was that the engagement of gears was the wrong way round.

In real ife,if the RPM is not correct for engagement, then one can not push the gear lever into the proper position and you get CRUNCH.

With Sim H pattern change, you depress the clutch, move the lever into position easily. release the clutch and  then - CRUNCH.

I have reverted to sequential gearshift

:dino:

That annoys me too and I have blown a number of engines as a result :censored: but, like Tobodestroyer, I enjoy the experience more now with an h-shifter :drive:

#25 Roger_F

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Posted Jan 13 2021 - 09:59 AM

View Posttwinpotter, on Jan 13 2021 - 08:11 AM, said:

I can't heel-toe not because I don't want to try but rather my standard g27 pedals seem too close and my feet get all tangled up and don't dab the correct pedal quick enough 🤔😂

So I have to stick to left foot braking.

TP:

TP,

If you would ... please refer to my previous response #14.  You can right foot brake, right foot gas, and left foot clutch "with out double clutching" in GPL.  You essentially limit / modify your shifter to a sequential pattern (3rd gear and 4th gear positions) and replace the paddle assignments with sequential shifter positions "up" and "down."  The double clutching necessity is eliminated and there is no need for Fair Shift or any other added software.

In my much younger days I successfully campaigned an E Production MGB in SCCA.  My car had a professionally modified gas pedal that had a flange welded to the bottom of the pedal (like a backwards L) that partially extended under the brake pedal.  This made double clutching and smooth gear change braking much easer and I was not alone in this modification.

Simulating 60s racing cars is well served by trading sequential shifting for double clutching as many of the real 60s pedal arrangements were built or modified to accommodate double clutching.  I have G29 pedals, but even with the adjustable left / right pedal mounting positions, the pedal spacing is not ideal for convenient double clutching and smooth gear change braking.

The best solution would probably be to build an inverted pedal box with top suspended pedals and an extension on the gas pedal that extended in the direction of the brake pedal.  This would allow proper spacing and correct action of a simulated 60s pedal set;  if this pandemic lasts long enough, I might even be tempted to start this project.

I hope this helps you TP,

Roger

#26 twinpotter

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Posted Jan 13 2021 - 11:01 AM

Thank you Roger for the info & explanation.

I'd thought before about if it was possible to upgrade from my g27 pedals, although I'm not that technical to do it myself.
I would have to purchase in say some inverted pedals from say Fanatec or similar and connect remotely to my usb with my bodnar adapter?

Thanks again 👍

TP: 🏁

#27 Tobodestroyer2020

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Posted Jan 14 2021 - 03:51 AM

View Posttwinpotter, on Jan 13 2021 - 08:11 AM, said:

I can't heel-toe not because I don't want to try but rather my standard g27 pedals seem too close and my feet get all tangled up and don't dab the correct pedal quick enough 🤔😂

So I have to stick to left foot braking.

TP:

I don't so much heel/toe as side-of-foot/toe. I roll my ankle and blip the throttle about half-way along my right foot. Take your shoes off if you've still got them on.

#28 Roger_F

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Posted Jan 14 2021 - 05:43 AM

View PostTobodestroyer2020, on Jan 14 2021 - 03:51 AM, said:

I don't so much heel/toe as side-of-foot/toe. I roll my ankle and blip the throttle about half-way along my right foot. Take your shoes off if you've still got them on.

Tobodistroyer2020

That roll your ankle technique is possible with simulation or gaming hardware, but would be very difficult in real 1960s and 1970s race cars.

The reason for the heal / toe technique in these old race cars was to smoothly and continuously brake from the start of the breaking sequence to the apex of the corner and at the same time down shift several times.   In most of these old race cars that also required double clutching on each shift to get those old transmissions to engage smoothly and not upset the balance of the car as you entered the corner.

In order to accomplish all this, you really needed the ball of your foot on the center of the brake pedal throughout the breaking / shifting sequence; you also need very precise breaking pressure.  These maneuvers often required several hundred feet from the first time you touched the brakes until you transitioned off the brakes at the apex of the corner.   Long straights leading into tight corners were a  real challenge in terms of keeping the chassis balanced, changing gears (several times), and also delaying the start of the breaking sequence to the last possible second.

Rolling  your ankle and accomplishing all of the other finesse maneuvers previously discussed would have been a real trick.  So all this comes down to what a simulation can really duplicate and how much time and money you want to spend to accomplish this replication?  The professional race car drivers of the 1960s and 1970s were very skilled in terms of both technique and coordination; they literally danced on their pedals lap after lap to produce consistent and competitive lap times.

As you can probably tell, I raced in the 1970s and was in awe of the professional drivers of the day ... thanks for listening.

Roger

#29 Pete Gaimari

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Posted Jan 14 2021 - 08:34 AM

It's more of a pivot of the foot on the brake to tap the throttle. Watch Jimmy at Oulton do it. They only show it once for a split second but you get the idea. Not a great looking video but it's all we have.

https://www.dailymot...m/video/x2yo8pd

#30 Roger_F

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Posted Jan 14 2021 - 10:29 AM

View PostPete Gaimari, on Jan 14 2021 - 08:34 AM, said:

It's more of a pivot of the foot on the brake to tap the throttle. Watch Jimmy at Oulton do it. They only show it once for a split second but you get the idea. Not a great looking video but it's all we have.

https://www.dailymot...m/video/x2yo8pd

Pete,

I absolutely agree!

The problem I see with the G29 pedals (and many other simulation pedal sets) is that when you properly pivot your right foot the gas pedal remains above the heel of the pivoted foot.  The gas pedal needs to at least be longer if not shaped differently.  I think, Inverted pedals would definitely help.

Pete, are you using inverted pedals and if so what brand?  ... are they mounted jn the stock position?

Thanks,

Roger

#31 Pete Gaimari

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Posted Jan 14 2021 - 10:36 AM

No, I use the Fanatec V3 pedals. They're more in the style of F1 cars. I'll agree that H&T is hard with the Logi pedals. It can be done but it's hardly ideal.

Using pedals with a brake load cell makes it much easier. More like the real car.

#32 dbell84

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Posted Jan 14 2021 - 03:26 PM

View PostPete Gaimari, on Jan 14 2021 - 10:36 AM, said:


Using pedals with a brake load cell makes it much easier. More like the real car.
  

That's the truth. Before I bought my load cell mod for my pedals, I found heal and toeing difficult with potentiometer brakes. Load cell makes all the difference for me.

#33 Tobodestroyer2020

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Posted Jan 15 2021 - 03:23 AM

View PostPete Gaimari, on Jan 14 2021 - 10:36 AM, said:

Using pedals with a brake load cell makes it much easier. More like the real car.

I know... during qualifying online the other week my Fanatec V1 pedals stopped working (dirt in the hall-sender) so I quickly had to make a pit-stop and plug in my G27 pedals. The braking was horrible. All you have to go on is the sound of the tyres locking up.

#34 Cookie

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Posted Jan 15 2021 - 04:12 AM

Hehe Pete,
some time ago I had the feeling of not full throttle on my V1 and it showed it did not, in the config app. Cleaning the hall sensor did fix it.

IMO it would have been quicker to use a vacuum cleaner then to replace the whole pedals ;)

Yes once you are used to load cell braking there is no way back!

#35 Roger_F

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Posted Jan 16 2021 - 09:33 AM

Gentleman:   Wow, what a lot of information regarding ... "Is It Worth Setting Up The Clutch And H-Pattern?"

What seems to be slightly below the surface is both the cost and the space / supporting structure that is needed to accomplish a functioning Clutch and H-Pattern hardware and software interface.

Most of the instructional material that comes with load cell designed or modified pedal sets cautions that the pedals must be permanently mounted and recommends the same for the racing seat / office chair.  The force necessary to engage the break pedal will evidently overwhelm a pedal set placed on the floor and/or a semi mobile office chair.  This is probably also true with some of the stiff potentiometer brake modifications.

Also unsaid are the best combinations of wheel / shifter /  pedal set  / sim rig (professional or home built) / hardware and software that makes Clutch and H-Pattern enjoyable and worth the effort.  It also seems not all pedal sets are effectively Heal and Toe compatible.

I am currently using a G29 Logitech wheel  / pedal set / and shifter with the shifter modified for sequential shifting.  My break pedal is modified to be much stiffer and have decidedly shorter travel than stock.  My pedals are permanently mounted to a home made wooden platform and my office chair can be attached and unattached to the pedal set platform.

I find myself in a position where I can probably afford the cost of a fully dedicated set-up but I don't really have the available space; or alternatively, the final cost to get my wife to agree to a permanent sim rig might be the ultimate hill too high to climb.

What are some of the solutions to this dilemma that you learned practitioners have employed?

Thanks ahead of time for you wisdom and experiences; I look forward to reading them.

Roger


#36 webfoot

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Posted Jan 16 2021 - 09:50 AM

Maybe a something like this is a possibility.  This is a UK based company, there may be a US equivalent.  You can later add the rear fraem and seat to create a full rig.

https://www.gtomega....ing-wheel-stand

They also do lockable casters for a std office chair

https://www.gtomega....e-caster-wheels

Edited by webfoot, Jan 16 2021 - 09:52 AM.





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