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To Brake With Left Or Right Foot?


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#16 T18

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Posted Jul 17 2014 - 06:50 AM

So the Lotus 76 had 2 brake pedals? That much i could find, was it set up so that on was front brake and the other rear?

#17 Fat Rich

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Posted Jul 17 2014 - 07:10 AM

View PostDavid Wright Lo67, on Jul 17 2014 - 06:33 AM, said:

60s GP cars could be downshifted without the clutch but it wasn't the norm - only done if the clutch failed.  Lotuses were an exception in that they had synchromesh gearboxes - I don't think they could be shifted without the clutch or it was very difficult.
............

Jim Clark won the Mexican GP in 67 despite losing the clutch so it was possible:

"While passing Hill, Clark's clutch operation stopped working and for the whole race at record speeds he drove without it. The only place that it was noticeable was the approach to the corner at the end of the main straight. Here his line was quite different to practice and he did not change down at all until he was right round the corner."

http://www.intothere...son_mexico.html

But it probably wouldn't have been mentioned if changing gear without the clutch was normal practise.

Edited by Fat Rich, Jul 17 2014 - 07:14 AM.


#18 David Wright Lo67

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Posted Jul 17 2014 - 10:55 AM

View PostT18, on Jul 17 2014 - 06:50 AM, said:

So the Lotus 76 had 2 brake pedals? That much i could find, was it set up so that on was front brake and the other rear?

No.  One brake pedal was on the left hand side of the steering column for left foot braking and one on the right hand side for right foot braking.  The pedals were connected.

#19 David Wright Lo67

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Posted Jul 17 2014 - 11:04 AM

View PostFat Rich, on Jul 17 2014 - 07:10 AM, said:

View PostDavid Wright Lo67, on Jul 17 2014 - 06:33 AM, said:

60s GP cars could be downshifted without the clutch but it wasn't the norm - only done if the clutch failed.  Lotuses were an exception in that they had synchromesh gearboxes - I don't think they could be shifted without the clutch or it was very difficult.
............

Jim Clark won the Mexican GP in 67 despite losing the clutch so it was possible:

"While passing Hill, Clark's clutch operation stopped working and for the whole race at record speeds he drove without it. The only place that it was noticeable was the approach to the corner at the end of the main straight. Here his line was quite different to practice and he did not change down at all until he was right round the corner."

http://www.intothere...son_mexico.html

But it probably wouldn't have been mentioned if changing gear without the clutch was normal practise.

Thanks for this - clearly they were possible.  But they are more difficult with a synchro box compared to a dog ring box.

Edited by David Wright Lo67, Jul 17 2014 - 11:08 AM.


#20 T18

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Posted Jul 17 2014 - 11:36 AM

View PostDavid Wright Lo67, on Jul 17 2014 - 10:55 AM, said:

View PostT18, on Jul 17 2014 - 06:50 AM, said:

So the Lotus 76 had 2 brake pedals? That much i could find, was it set up so that on was front brake and the other rear?

No.  One brake pedal was on the left hand side of the steering column for left foot braking and one on the right hand side for right foot braking.  The pedals were connected.

okay thats, an interesting layout.

#21 Pete Gaimari

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Posted Jul 17 2014 - 12:26 PM

The good part about GPL is you can make it what you want. It doesn't matter what anybody else is doing. As long as you're happy doing it your way, it can't be wrong. I'm sure we all drive GPL to have fun. Don't do anything in GPL to satisfy someone else. You only have to satisfy yourself.

#22 jgf

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Posted Jul 17 2014 - 12:57 PM

Downshifting a non-synchro gearbox without using the clutch can be done by an experienced driver, though in a racing environment it isn't efficient.  The procedure is to go to neutral, rev the engine slightly, and move the shift slightly towards the lower gear, just enough to bring the gears into contact;  you will feel the gears mesh at one point, complete the shift then.

I learned to drive in a '51 Studebaker pickup, "three-on-the-tree", no synchro;  upshifting without the clutch wasn't too difficult, but I never mastered downshifting.  Men of my father's generation were quite adept at this and, though shifting a street vehicle is different from shifting a race car, they seemed to spend little more time on the downshift than the upshift.  (We'll not mention how often the groans, snarls, and grinds of tortured gearboxes drifted across our county as my friends and I learned these techniques.)

#23 one2fwee

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Posted Jul 17 2014 - 01:20 PM

In GPL, LFB while keeping on the throttle seems to shorten braking distances, which always irked me and isn't something i can recommend - but people basically exploit this and basically never use the coast side of the diff. This is why if you drive normally with a lot of setups that have a very "open" coast side of the diff, you tend to lock the rear wheels and die while trying to slow down. The brake bias is generally further to the rear than normal setups, but because they throttle while braking and also keep on the very locking power side of the diff, both of these things help counteract the rear wheels from locking.

In theory, this should balance out and not provide any extra braking force but in GPL it seems like it gains you a bit, which is a large part of the reason a lot of aliens LFB. It also makes balancing the car and keeping it stable into turns a lot easier.

#24 Pete Gaimari

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Posted Jul 17 2014 - 01:34 PM

View Postjgf, on Jul 17 2014 - 12:57 PM, said:

Downshifting a non-synchro gearbox without using the clutch can be done by an experienced driver, though in a racing environment it isn't efficient.  The procedure is to go to neutral, rev the engine slightly, and move the shift slightly towards the lower gear, just enough to bring the gears into contact;  you will feel the gears mesh at one point, complete the shift then.

I learned to drive in a '51 Studebaker pickup, "three-on-the-tree", no synchro;  upshifting without the clutch wasn't too difficult, but I never mastered downshifting.  Men of my father's generation were quite adept at this and, though shifting a street vehicle is different from shifting a race car, they seemed to spend little more time on the downshift than the upshift.  (We'll not mention how often the groans, snarls, and grinds of tortured gearboxes drifted across our county as my friends and I learned these techniques.)

I'm a retired truck driver. I did it for 30 years, and have a million miles doing it. The only time I used the clutch was at a stop.

#25 Fat Rich

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Posted Jul 17 2014 - 05:06 PM

View Postone2fwee, on Jul 17 2014 - 01:20 PM, said:

In GPL, LFB while keeping on the throttle seems to shorten braking distances, which always irked me and isn't something i can recommend - but people basically exploit this and basically never use the coast side of the diff. This is why if you drive normally with a lot of setups that have a very "open" coast side of the diff, you tend to lock the rear wheels and die while trying to slow down. The brake bias is generally further to the rear than normal setups, but because they throttle while braking and also keep on the very locking power side of the diff, both of these things help counteract the rear wheels from locking.

In theory, this should balance out and not provide any extra braking force but in GPL it seems like it gains you a bit, which is a large part of the reason a lot of aliens LFB. It also makes balancing the car and keeping it stable into turns a lot easier.

AHA! Thanks for this, it's a bit of a Eureka moment for me.

Up to now on my GPL comeback (7 whole months after a 15 year break) I've been developing my own setups but I've hit a wall on a few circuits where no amount of tweaking or adjusting my lines makes me any faster.

Last couple of days I've downloaded a few "Alien" fast setups but I'm still setting similar human times while also really struggling with the braking zones. My better laps seem to be when I'm concentrating so hard on not losing the car under braking that I mess up my heel / toe downshifts and end up with some brake and gas at the same time, the car is much more stable.

I've seen a couple of videos of iRacing where someone has lost the car, mashed the brake and gas at the same time and the car has magically sorted itself. Like this one at about 4m50s in, watch the steering / pedals meter in the lower left corner:



Maybe GPL reacts the same way, seems a bit "gamey" to me :really:.

Still, it's given me something to think about when developing setups.  :D

Edited by Fat Rich, Jul 17 2014 - 05:07 PM.


#26 T18

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Posted Jul 17 2014 - 05:23 PM

yes GPL will 'catch' like that if you go opp lock and full brakes, so will Forza 4, DTR2, N4, and NR2003

#27 qwertyce

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Posted Jul 17 2014 - 05:45 PM

about shifting without clutch, from four wheel drift:



Posted Image

#28 Pete Gaimari

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Posted Jul 17 2014 - 06:44 PM

You sure could LF brake the F2 cars. Here;s the Lotus 41, and it sure looks like the left side of the brake pedal has some wear. However, this car is raced in Historic races, so it doesn't mean the original drivers in the 60's did it. Then again it doesn't mean they didn't either.


Posted Image

Edited by Pete Gaimari, Jul 17 2014 - 06:45 PM.


#29 Bob Simpson

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Posted Jul 17 2014 - 08:31 PM

The Lotus 41 had a tubular frame and not monocoque?  Looking further, I guess so.  I ways thought that from the Lotus 25 on all of them were monocoque.

Edited by Bob Simpson, Jul 17 2014 - 08:36 PM.


#30 Pete Gaimari

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Posted Jul 17 2014 - 09:31 PM

Probably just the F1. Although the 48 might be monocoque? I'll have a look to see.




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