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V.R. Metaphysical Aesthetics


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#41 John Woods

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Posted Jan 30 2011 - 10:04 AM

Sorry about waking up this thread and running it on but as it is an ongoing quest, occasionally some insight or coincidence of another thread discussion reminds me many of us are still searching for some magic aha moments, and Grand Prix Legends continues to deliver.

Something prompted by a recent aha moment is very important and I think rarely mentioned, which is directing the driving line by using front suspension bounce.

Lately I've been considering this with some interest and today thought maybe I'd go back and look at the Ring screenshot, ("Apex_Aremberg"), in the above post #40 to freshen my memory about zero divided by infinity, to find out what was it I was thinking back then, and noted it had been downloaded like 40+ times.

Gee, not much downloading after 1,500 thread views. (Maybe Burnsy865 is right).

Anyway, turns out I already had an idea about the critical need to drive a car using spring bounce to place it on a certain and specific point at the exit of a turn and included a note about it as an aside.

Here's the technique, in case any of the 40 or so who are interested care to try it. (I know its all fantasy/guess, but its what I think I'm doing).

(As in Apex_Aremberg, assume you = zero on the y-axis):

Coming up to a turn, pick a point where you want to be at exit…this is not a special point until you think it is, it can be anywhere on the track depending on circumstance, but typically except in pursuit it is near the centerline of the track, In the screenshot, this point is called "infinity."

Once determined, quickly flick the wheel in the opposite direction. If intending to turn right, flick the wheel left to a point symmetrically opposite the exit point, (or close enough, to get the springs bouncing away from the exit).

Then, as the springs bounce back and are then directing the bounce toward the exit point, flick the wheel quickly to the exit point, typically inside the apex of the driving line, and at the same time tap the brake quick but firm, once. (ONCE!).

The springs will then compress toward the exit point with substantial emphasis and if not interrupted will bounce in that direction until they bounce back, away from the point where you want to be. That is not what you want happening at all, right?

So to keep it happening, trail brake into the turn, holding the springs on point, then slowly floor it and hold the wheel on the exit point! Don't turn the wheel away as long as it seems the springs are still bouncing to that point.

Very amazing. It goes right where you point it, (the red line in the screenshot). Better get it right, because it will not go anywhere else without a lot of panic-stricken flailing about, if you are lucky. But throw the front springs there, and the car will go there. You can pick a point way on down the track as well, which works really well at tracks like Silverstone67.

The goal is once per turn or once per change in track direction. If it doesn't go there, steer the car with the brake and accelerating throttle, to re-center the car, and repeat the entire sequence. This causes a second apex, but you get thru the turn, (hopefully). If that doesn't happen, reconsider your line and/or fix your setup.
Start with steering ratio, as that very much effects how the flicking wheel sets up the entire turn, as well as how the car holds the driving line. (If I import a setup, the first thing I do is tweak the steering to sync the setup to my race console as close as possible, and not change anything else). After that, work on the diff, etc...

So, cu/aloha/ciao/adioci/bye

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Edited by John Woods, Feb 06 2011 - 06:16 PM.


#42 wiliamsmith4444

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Posted Jul 15 2011 - 03:30 PM

I react to, say, a sudden loss of grip at speed and I'm using "body english" as I fight to regain control and continue on without losing too much time, I'm not at all pretending, as you suggest I am

#43 John Woods

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Posted Jul 24 2011 - 08:27 PM

View Postwiliamsmith4444, on Jul 15 2011 - 03:30 PM, said:

I react to, say, a sudden loss of grip at speed and I'm using "body english" as I fight to regain control and continue on without losing too much time, I'm not at all pretending, as you suggest I am
Hi williamsmith4444, Howdy!
Welcome to The Forum!
Isn't Grand Prix Legends the greatest!
Sorry for not responding sooner. I just checked this thread again after several weeks of not thinking about it.

One reason the immersion in fantasy seems so real is to play the game we must react as if it is real, and no doubt to be fully into it does not require conscious suspension of disbelief or the pretense we do believe it is real...it is an intersection of reality and fantasy and the nodal point is our awareness of being, which is pretty hard to separate from reality. Reacting to Grand Prix Legends as if it is real is part of the fantasy. Our reaction is what makes fantasies seem real. I read once there are more than 700 unique sensory inputs programmed into Grand Prix Legends. No wonder it seems so real, we are overloaded with fantasy inputs, and we all jump around and fall off our racing seats when things get hairy.

It is a very interesting thing that we easily place ourselves into it so completely we enjoy without pretense how amazing it is. Even knowing it is not real makes no difference when immersed in it...that is the curious thing; that humans can do that, and how they do it. Of course it is half-real half-fantasy.

But, to make it real, and not a fantasy, means to me recognizing, or acknowledging, it is as valid and more real to be racing a computer as it is to be pretending to be racing along with Hill and Clark. Our brains don't seem to know the difference even if we make a deliberate effort to suspend awareness of the present by placing ourselves somewhere else, (like Monza in 1967 or Watkins Glen in 1948). And surely, racing online is very real and not a pretense at all. But even online, it is still a computer, and it is still projecting mathematical certainty into a fantasy.

The underlying "theory" detailed at the beginning of this thread is the idea that racing the computer provides a basis for using its capacity to project a certain line, (a racing line), with mathematical precision that far exceeds the level of perfection typical of IRL experience...so we can command the computer to present things to us on the display that coincides with what is theoretically possible in real life. If we try the same approach in real life...watch out! Real life will quickly prove to us it's not all about mathematics. Ultimately Grand Prix Legends runs on binary code and it is all about mathematics. So why not use that to our advantage as the opportunity to do so is there? Also, the necessity of tuning the display and configuring the hardware and software properly kind of makes the point as well.

Of course, anyone can imagine anything they want about what they think they are doing. What is most real to me is the incredible astounding exceptional World Class Fine Art that is created by car and track artist/editors and the efforts of so many others that make Grand Prix Legends the best racing sim ever. Think the ceiling of the Cistine Chapel is big? Try Targa or the Isle of Man in 1:1 scale! It is no fantasy how fantastic it all is, and when driving around and through it, (the only way I can think of to describe it), that experience is truly real.

Edited by John Woods, Jul 24 2011 - 10:02 PM.


#44 TurboMan

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Posted Nov 12 2013 - 11:54 AM

Your reasonings are very interesting John :hat-tip: . Very curious explanations, now i won't feel the same when playing not only GPL but all kind of racing videogames :lol:

#45 John Woods

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Posted Aug 27 2014 - 03:01 PM

Recently became aware of a similarity between shooting pool and "calculating" the racing line as I understand it.
In pool, there is a concept known as the ghost pocket. If a shooter aims a ball at the ghost pocket, the ball rebounds off the rail and travels to the real pocket, as if bouncing off a mirror.
In sort of the same way, a driver may throw a car's sprung weight to a ghost exit point around a turn and trust it will bounce past the apex to that point, as illustrated in the accompanying sketch that overlays the zero/infinity diagram with one showing the ghost pockets for cross table banks.

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Edited by John Woods, Aug 27 2014 - 03:02 PM.


#46 John Woods

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Posted Dec 13 2014 - 11:16 AM

Apparently no one, or few if any, has seen anything like this before, and despite having no idea myself whether its in any way mathematically correct or not, here is a recent sketch about funny calculus of the racing line. Seems it works for me.
Maybe it will make some sense to someone as well.

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Edited by John Woods, Dec 13 2014 - 11:18 AM.


#47 benzman

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Posted Dec 13 2014 - 01:14 PM

I am not a mathematician but my gut tells me that you cannot divide zero by infinity, or any other number by infinity, or do ANYTHING with an infinity except hope that you can juggle your equations to try and make it go away.  I do know that real-life mathematicians hate it when an infinity crops up, except Einstein when infinities resulted from his investigations into the speed of light in special relativity.  I suspect that the graphic is some sort of spoof.

#48 Saiph

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Posted Dec 14 2014 - 08:07 AM

That picture is just a meaningless jumble of lines with no mathematical validity whatsoever. I really don't know how you can say that it "works" for you John, because it doesn't actually say anything at all.

"Mummy, why is the Emperor walking around with no clothes on?"  ;)

#49 John Woods

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Posted Dec 14 2014 - 12:31 PM

Meaningless spoof is a very gracious way to describe it.
Thanks guys, for your point of view.
Sophomoric is for sure more appropriate way to put it if the context is academic.

I am curious tho about how you determine while in car an open track racing line.

Haven't found a lot of mathematics or any descriptions from POV of a point moving on a line. Seems its all static diagrams from POV of an observer, usually from far above.

Think mathematicians don't like infinity because when it comes up they've probably made a mistake somewhere.

Here's a fun link: The Brachistochrone Curve

Flip thru the slide show to view animations.
The attached drawing was copied from them.

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Edited by John Woods, Dec 14 2014 - 03:35 PM.


#50 MECH

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Posted Dec 14 2014 - 04:13 PM

View PostSaiph, on Dec 14 2014 - 08:07 AM, said:

That picture is just a meaningless jumble of lines with no mathematical validity whatsoever. I really don't know how you can say that it "works" for you John, because it doesn't actually say anything at all.

"Mummy, why is the Emperor walking around with no clothes on?"  ;)
It is all in the eye of the beholder.

Emperor, why is the Mummy walking around with no clothes on?

#51 John Woods

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Posted Dec 14 2014 - 08:00 PM

:)

Suppose you come up to a turn, and looking ahead, pick a point to quit slowing and start accelerating. How do you pick that point? Just brake hard at the last possible moment and crank the steering wheel? Wuhoohoo!
That's how I learn most tracks, but later its more fun and less frantic to work on averaging speed with fewer and smoother transitions.
Early in, early out makes the next straight longer, so how do you decide where to put the apex of the curve on which the car travels?
Just do it?

One thing I can confirm with certainty is a Grand Prix Legends car will stay on point and on vector if acceleration is maintained. So that trick is simple...just keep accelerating. But at some point it will run out of track and have to be re-vectored.
The thing is, what point?
Not just any point in the vague far distance, but the specific point where the current vector is abandoned and the car is transitioned to a new vector.
Are there any clues that are characteristic of all tracks, all curves and turns?
How do you describe them, if you think there are any?

Edited by John Woods, Dec 16 2014 - 08:49 PM.


#52 fajanko

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Posted Dec 15 2014 - 02:43 AM

One of my favourite topics on SRMZ. Thanks John :)

Vectors are definitely there in our driving. That's why graphics are secondary in my opinion. Though you need to go beyond a point in driving to see this. Our best drivers in the Hungarian league (talking about -70 rank) always used default papyrus track graphics.

#53 John Woods

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Posted Dec 17 2014 - 08:00 AM

View Postfajanko, on Dec 15 2014 - 02:43 AM, said:

One of my favourite topics on SRMZ. Thanks John :)

You're welcome. Wish I knew more.

Edited by John Woods, Dec 18 2014 - 10:13 AM.


#54 John Woods

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Posted Feb 14 2016 - 11:53 AM

Been thinking again...

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Edited by John Woods, Feb 15 2016 - 08:57 AM.


#55 John Woods

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Posted Jun 07 2016 - 11:02 AM

Same theme, bit more fun...this time trying to show effect of using diff in coast to place car on certain vector with max power on vector as quick as possible.

Tune shocks to diff?

That's the questions and guesses idea. Point the front at brake point 1, drop the rear into coast at zero, then get back on it firm and smooth. Re-vector from dynamic (0,0) at designated infinities.
:D

(Picks your own points).

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Edited by John Woods, Jun 07 2016 - 05:45 PM.


#56 John Woods

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Posted Feb 11 2017 - 10:57 AM

Found some fun racing lines on this generic vector map road course.

How is it useful? It is a different way of looking at a track and having confidence in your own perception of it, beyond its display appearance and into the mathematics of classical physics and the structure of physical space.

Unlike R/L physical space, in Grand Prix Legends the virtual space more closely resembles the attached drawings.

In Grand Prix Legends, the user makes the display happen.
It will happen with the same certainty as the math on which the software is based.

1. Know the math
2. Trust it absolutely
3. Make it happen
4. Surprise yourself
5. Have too much fun

That's my theory

:)

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Edited by John Woods, Feb 11 2017 - 11:18 AM.


#57 Saiph

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Posted Feb 11 2017 - 04:48 PM

Barman! A pint of whatever he had, please! ^  ;)

#58 ginetto

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Posted Feb 11 2017 - 05:46 PM

Batman
it was Batman
Batman did it

:cheers:

#59 John Woods

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Posted Feb 19 2017 - 10:08 AM

ha ha ha
:D

Its Thunder Valley!

Pour these guys another one and open a tab.
This might take awhile.

The red line is the racing line.
Will explain it when I figure out how.

Only hypothetically guessing, something about how track camber rotates the car while it drifts on a straight line across a turn, which it will only do with steering input, which seems/appears/maybe to be counter steer, but it is really holding the center on tangent line with flat track surface, (which the diagram proves does exist on a curved surface). So the car travels on an absolute straight line while appearing to be on a relative curved line.

Yes I know we are not driving on polygons.


Makes me drunk trying to make a sketch of it.



:P

Edited by John Woods, Mar 05 2017 - 02:29 PM.


#60 John Woods

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Posted Mar 05 2017 - 02:28 PM

Possibly, this short 10sec replay thru T7 at Road America illustrates demonstration of straight line sliding thru a turn?
Note the only purpose of very slight drift is to rapidly change line to project a vector inside a point further ahead, such as the second large tree on the left coming down to T8.

Only have imagination and usually dubious intuition.
Really like to know if it doesn't show that and if not then what is happening?



This clip is best viewed from high up directly above car.

:)

Latest Edit: added a composite of screenshots from clip that show tire marks indicating line of the drift.
(clik ctrl+ a few times for better viewing).

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Edited by John Woods, Mar 11 2017 - 01:56 PM.





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