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1937 Gpl


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#21 twinpotter

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Posted Apr 23 2013 - 03:24 PM

Just put the 1937 gpl mod into my gtr2 and a few laps around Brooklands in a ERA.Spot on nostalgic racing.Thanks Benzman for the info earlier in this thread!

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#22 benzman

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Posted Apr 23 2013 - 08:24 PM

View Posttwinpotter, on Apr 23 2013 - 03:24 PM, said:

Just put the 1937 gpl mod into my gtr2 and a few laps around Brooklands in a ERA.Spot on nostalgic racing.Thanks Benzman for the info earlier in this thread!

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My pleasure!

#23 Rudy Dingemans

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Posted Apr 23 2013 - 08:51 PM

"So yes, can't wait for it in GPL, and a 62 mod too. I'm no youngster so went for the rfactor version for now "

Just wanted to mention there has been some 1960s mods out for the old F1 Challenge, including F1 1961 (including the Sharknose!) - up till 1964, and 1960 in the works I think. They're supposed to gradually get converted to rFactor but that will probably take a while.

#24 1967driver

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Posted Apr 24 2013 - 01:49 AM

View PostLee200, on Apr 23 2013 - 01:26 PM, said:

Unfortunately, GPL is so complex that simply inputting these known variables never results in a satisfactory product without much additional effort.  I wish it were not so as that would certainly speed up mod development.

After the known data is entered into the physics is when the real work begins.  It takes hours and hours of testing by the mod team members and is very much a dynamic process.  Typically, dozens of different physics settings packages are tried and discarded before the majority of the team members feel comfortable with the cars' handling and final physics.  As Benzman said, none of us has actually driven a Lotus 49 or a Ferrari 330 P4 so everyone has a different opinion on how the cars should handle based on our own driving experiences and other sources of information such as the videos of the Silver Arrows.
This is the problem in your physics development: democracy is not the way, need to have a clear rule to obtain a good result.
Non aliens drivers (as me) are not significant to test car behavior, they cannot (or dont want) take advantage of bugs in GPL (that permit to drive in unrealistic way).
Also, using real parameters inside the game is a mistake: the only purpose must be to obtain a realistic behavior (USER INPUT=REAL OUTPUT), it's not important if the target is reached through formulas from real world physics or through empirical formulas (mr. Pacejka docet).
If an object have a weight of 100 kg in real world, it's right to define it of 250 kg inside the game if this permit to have correct response at user input.
Aliens have to be strongly limited in their skills, they MUST drive in realistic way, this is mandatory in physics development (their pleasure in driving cannot help, indeed it's true the opposite).
If you dont understand this, there is no hope for GPL (and this is a sin).

#25 burt

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Posted Apr 24 2013 - 02:32 AM

View PostRudy Dingemans, on Apr 23 2013 - 08:51 PM, said:

"So yes, can't wait for it in GPL, and a 62 mod too. I'm no youngster so went for the rfactor version for now "

Just wanted to mention there has been some 1960s mods out for the old F1 Challenge, including F1 1961 (including the Sharknose!) - up till 1964, and 1960 in the works I think. They're supposed to gradually get converted to rFactor but that will probably take a while.

Thanks for the heads up Rudy, I will take a look.

#26 Lee200

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Posted Apr 24 2013 - 07:10 AM

View Post1967driver, on Apr 24 2013 - 01:49 AM, said:

This is the problem in your physics development: democracy is not the way, need to have a clear rule to obtain a good result.
Non aliens drivers (as me) are not significant to test car behavior, they cannot (or dont want) take advantage of bugs in GPL (that permit to drive in unrealistic way).
Also, using real parameters inside the game is a mistake: the only purpose must be to obtain a realistic behavior (USER INPUT=REAL OUTPUT), it's not important if the target is reached through formulas from real world physics or through empirical formulas (mr. Pacejka docet).
If an object have a weight of 100 kg in real world, it's right to define it of 250 kg inside the game if this permit to have correct response at user input.
Aliens have to be strongly limited in their skills, they MUST drive in realistic way, this is mandatory in physics development (their pleasure in driving cannot help, indeed it's true the opposite).
If you dont understand this, there is no hope for GPL (and this is a sin).

Are you a troll as your avatar suggests or are you here just to complain?

Apparently, you didn't read my message where I clearly state that our non alien testers have just as much input to the final physics as our aliens.  We are not going to ignore the inputs of our alien testers however as you suggest.

Also, we use the known values such as weight as beginning inputs, but the test process does require some changes as development progresses.  A good example is the tire slip curve which is modified several times until we get it right.

It's too bad you find GPL so hopeless.  The mod teams, on the other hand, find it full of hope and that's why we keep making mods for the GPL community even though it includes people like you.

Edited by Lee200, Apr 24 2013 - 07:20 AM.


#27 benzman

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Posted Apr 24 2013 - 12:47 PM

View Post1967driver, on Apr 24 2013 - 01:49 AM, said:

Also, using real parameters inside the game is a mistake: the only purpose must be to obtain a realistic behavior (USER INPUT=REAL OUTPUT), it's not important if the target is reached through formulas from real world physics or through empirical formulas (mr. Pacejka docet).
If an object have a weight of 100 kg in real world, it's right to define it of 250 kg inside the game if this permit to have correct response at user input.
Oddly enough, I actually agree with him on this point.  I used to be heavily into flight simming and forums were often full of earnest discussions as to whether an aircraft 'felt realistic'.  People often seemed to think that they were actually flying a real aircraft instead of simply watching the end result of a myriad mathematical algorithms performing an eye-watering amount of number crunching.  I think the bottom line of what he is saying is that it is the end result that counts and not how it is actually achieved.

#28 Lee200

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Posted Apr 24 2013 - 01:34 PM

We use the known parameters as the initial starting point, then modify them as needed to get the best effect.

Is that not clear?

Edited by Lee200, Apr 24 2013 - 01:36 PM.


#29 MECH

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Posted Apr 24 2013 - 01:40 PM

The gist of it i agree with but not the part of leaving out known parameters or values.
The physics are formed by using formulas that are based on the car specifications.
The more parameters you can fill in the less you have to guesstimate.
If the result is still way ofthere is always the option to alter the known figures to accomplish better behavior. But you should always try to dial out as many unknown factors as you can.

Even having 2 parameters with a range of 0-100 results in 1/100 * 1/100 = 1/10000 = 10.000 possible combinations. You can figure out what happens with every new unknown factor..

#30 ozpata

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Posted Apr 26 2013 - 07:22 PM

I have to say that we used a lot of time reading and finding every little thing that could help us get this mod as real as possible, then it was a lot of time watching the videos and trying to get the feeling as close to that as possible, as in anything, is not perfect and could have been better for sure, but rfactor have limitations and we took it as far as we could, the Brooklands track was done a long time before this mod came to life by Ben and there was also some other works in line like the still unreleased 55 mod and some turn of the century mod.

We are glad that people like it and hope to do some other work in the future, if time will allow it.

#31 Andreh

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Posted Apr 27 2013 - 08:31 AM

if there is any interest there is a league about to start

http://gp1937series....ace-may-5-2013/

#32 1967driver

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Posted Jun 11 2013 - 01:37 AM

View Postozpata, on Apr 26 2013 - 07:22 PM, said:

I have to say that we used a lot of time reading and finding every little thing that could help us get this mod as real as possible, then it was a lot of time watching the videos and trying to get the feeling as close to that as possible, as in anything, is not perfect and could have been better for sure, but rfactor have limitations and we took it as far as we could, the Brooklands track was done a long time before this mod came to life by Ben and there was also some other works in line like the still unreleased 55 mod and some turn of the century mod.

We are glad that people like it and hope to do some other work in the future, if time will allow it.
I recover this old post to do my excuse at you and at all modders that make physics in 1937 mod for rFactor.
My bad evaluation was determined by wrong influence that another mod (Hystorix) had over 1937, making cars very oversteering and unstable in all conditions.
Yesterday i do a separate installation in a clean rFactor directory, and now physics work very well: this mod convincing me also in car behavior and i'm happy to drive this spectacular cars in realistic way.
I'm ever very critic on realism, and it seemed appropriate to admit my error and to do my congratulations at all modders that make this masterpiece.

#33 Pete Gaimari

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Posted Jun 11 2013 - 07:37 AM

Just curious about how you know what the 37 cars should feel like? Not much info available.

#34 ozpata

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Posted Aug 28 2013 - 01:30 PM

there are plenty of books and info available if you take the time to look for it, is not easy, personally I have a good collection of magazines from the early 1900s to late 1980s, lots of articles and quite a few books, with that and some video, lots of time and coffee, notes were taken about basic behavior, with the info that could be found ( and was more than most people thought possible) we got a starting point that little by little was changed to calibrate what we felt was reasonable behavior, driving on a screen is not like driving on a real car, you don't get messages send up to your bottom, I know is not perfect and maybe if could have taken some more time, it could have turn up better but overall I think is a good mod that offer a taste of those glory days.

#35 TurboMan

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Posted Aug 29 2013 - 10:29 AM

View Postozpata, on Aug 28 2013 - 01:30 PM, said:

there are plenty of books and info available if you take the time to look for it, is not easy, personally I have a good collection of magazines from the early 1900s to late 1980s, lots of articles and quite a few books, with that and some video, lots of time and coffee, notes were taken about basic behavior, with the info that could be found ( and was more than most people thought possible) we got a starting point that little by little was changed to calibrate what we felt was reasonable behavior, driving on a screen is not like driving on a real car, you don't get messages send up to your bottom, I know is not perfect and maybe if could have taken some more time, it could have turn up better but overall I think is a good mod that offer a taste of those glory days.

This shows the hard work spent in a mod. Be sure that any mod or videogame won't be the same as driving a car in real life but with work it could be similar.

BTW, the video of GPL 1937 is great, lovely music and lovely times. 1937 will be my favourite year of motorsport history :)

#36 dangermouse

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Posted Aug 29 2013 - 02:12 PM

View PostTurboMan, on Aug 29 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:


BTW, the video of GPL 1937 is great, lovely music and lovely times. 1937 will be my favourite year of motorsport history :)


Errrrr, it's not GPL.............. :shh:

#37 TurboMan

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Posted Aug 30 2013 - 04:48 AM

View Postdangermouse, on Aug 29 2013 - 02:12 PM, said:

View PostTurboMan, on Aug 29 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

BTW, the video of GPL 1937 is great, lovely music and lovely times. 1937 will be my favourite year of motorsport history :)


Errrrr, it's not GPL.............. :shh:

:hysterical: ok ok, i knew, did read the whole post and i noticed it's not GPL, just wrote it in order they know the video i was refering to

#38 gplracer222

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Posted Jun 27 2019 - 08:31 AM

Oh buddy, let me just bump this thread up after six years.
I'm looking for some updates to the rFactor 1937 mod. I know this is about GPL and stuff, but I've been looking now for quite some time for the Vanderbilt Cup update and also the Bugatti Type 51 update to the GP37 mod.. I mean, currently I have in my install a Bugatti Type 51 in the Voiturette 1500cc class, but I know there's also a Type 51 Sport and Type 51 GP around, as I had those in my previous install until some other mod decided to corrupt everything.. :/
Anyway, I can't for the life of me find working download links for the Vanderbilt Cup update and the Bugatti Type 51 stuff and since this is one of the first threads I came across while just looking for the downloads, I'm quite surprised to hear that there seems to be a Mercedes W25 around too? :o

Anyway, I hope there's some way to find those as I can't seem to find it anywhere..

#39 guiporsche

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Posted Jul 02 2019 - 05:36 AM

There you go:

http://tt.servegame....arch=vanderbilt

You can find the Bugatti in the same place.
I also recommend you take a look at the Historic Sim Racing Organization forum (HSO) because their physics guy made an entire overhaul of the mod's physics not long ago (rfactor), which in my opinion made the cars much more realistic - as in controllable and predictable while still remaining challenging.

PS I would post it myself but I'm at work right now (shhhhhh :shh: ).

Edited by guiporsche, Jul 02 2019 - 05:37 AM.


#40 gplracer222

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Posted Jul 08 2019 - 12:37 PM

Psst, I know about HSO. I'm a regular driver over there (4 victories to my name) and I drove in their 1936/1937 open races, too, so I do have their overhauled physics installed, too ;-) But I couldn't find the Bugattis and Vanderbilt cars anywhere anymore.

Edited by gplracer222, Jul 08 2019 - 12:38 PM.





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