46 replies to this topic

[delgs]

Hi Gianfranco,

Thanks for the objects in mirrors for the F2 cars, I'm looking forward to it, looks very good so far. And thank you for all your other recent contributions of historically-correct helmets, driver suits etc. They're a real enhancement to the game!  

Just one thing about the mirrors: the current rims look a bit too thick to my eyes, and seem to be missing the white plastic seal between the rim and the glass that this type of mirror usually had. I've never seen any "bullet" mirrors with just a thick alloy rim and no seal visible. Somewhere I've got a pair of original racing mirrors made by Alexander, dating from 1964, and they have the white plastic seal. The modern repros have it too. Two pics of a Formula 2 Bt 23 cockpit below, hopefully you can just make out the white seals between rim and glass, and the overall proportions of the rim.

Actually, I feel bad about mentioning this, ( making extra work for you, when you're already doing a brilliant job!) and its a really minor thing, but I'm sure you'd want to get the detail right, if time allows. Either way, you're doing fantastic work, and its much appreciated, thank you again!

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[sky]

delgs, are you sure there is a seal around it? in my (limited) experience the mirrors had a bit of a gap between the mirror area and the housing in order to be able to tilt the mirror. but i can't say i've seen a seal there. also with the car pictured you see extra buttons on the wheel - those could all be later additions, so the mirror may not be original parts either... just sayin

that is btw a constant source of frustration when trying to recreate old racecars. you get some many bits and pieces of junk added to the cars over time, some because of the new owners, some because of fia safety regulations (rollbars & hoops)...

[delgs]

The mirrors are adjusted by rotating the whole head, which is eccentrically shaped, so that rotation tilts the glass to different angles. I'm away from home for a while, if I were'nt, I'd upload some pics of my sixties originals. The two big manufacturers back then were Walprest and Alexander, mine are the latter, and typical of what was fitted to racers in the 60's. Mine originally came from Rudds of Worthing.( Do a quick google on Ken Rudd and Ruddspeed, if you're interested ) However, the repros are the same, you can clearly see the seal in the pics below. The main difference between modern repros and originals is that the originals were much lighter in construction, and either polished alloy, or very thinly electro-plated.  The type you may be thinking of are the Raydyot mirrors (2nd pic from the right), which were of a different construction, rather than the rotate-to adjust type commonly seen on mid to late sixties single-seaters. Raydyots were much more commonly seen on 50's sports racers, and not seen so often seen in the sixties. As you say, Sky, very difficult to find good cockpit shots of cars in period, but it should be obvious from any external shot (that shows the mirrors) which type of mirror was in use. See the period shot of the Bt 23 below. These two types were really the only patterns of mirrors in use on Formula cars of the period that I'm aware of, other than the Monza/ Mach III style used by some of the Ferraris, which were of a totally different shape anyway, being trapezoidal.

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Edited by delgs, Jan 30 2012 - 09:44 AM.

[sky]

convincing arguments . was that seal as seen in the first pic detachable or could it get lost? i guess it was just pressed into the gap, right? maybe with a little wedge to go behind the actual mirror to keep it in place?

that would have me redo the '69 mirror on the fez. grmbl. i'll think i'll stick with the "whoopsie, seal got lost" cover story there

oh and ken rudd rings a bell. a faint one, but still.

[delgs]

AFIK, the seal is'nt detachable. Its made of fairly hard plastic, and the glass sits in a channel moulded into it, and the alloy of the rim is pressed over it. I think you'd probably struggle to get the seal out without breaking the glass, but its not always the tightest fit, and the glass can rattle a little. The plastic sealing ring is all that holds the glass into the mirror. I don't know about the 69 fez mirrors, though, probably very different. I'd always thought that they were the sebring type, but yeah, still with the seal round the edge of the glass. And who knows, maybe they frequently fell out on the 69 ferraris, what with all the bumps and vibration!  

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[Paddy the Irishman]

Are the 'realism police' getting a bit over zealous ?  

Gianfranco, you go ahead and give us what you want, don't sweat TOO hard over a plastic ring    

[MECH]

Paddy the Irishman, on Jan 30 2012 - 03:55 PM, said:

Are the 'realism police' getting a bit over zealous ?  

Gianfranco, you go ahead and give us what you want, don't sweat TOO hard over a plastic ring    

Who wants plastic anyway, the ocean is already full of it

[svenvangent]

MECH, on Jan 30 2012 - 04:25 PM, said:

Paddy the Irishman, on Jan 30 2012 - 03:55 PM, said:

Are the 'realism police' getting a bit over zealous ?  

Gianfranco, you go ahead and give us what you want, don't sweat TOO hard over a plastic ring    

Who wants plastic anyway, the ocean is already full of it

And in very tinny small pieces , i saw a documantary on tv about this problem ....; you don't believe your eyes how they treat are oceans  
greets

[delgs]

Paddy the Irishman, on Jan 30 2012 - 03:55 PM, said:

Are the 'realism police' getting a bit over zealous ?  

Gianfranco, you go ahead and give us what you want, don't sweat TOO hard over a plastic ring    

Like I said (if you'd read my post)...its a really minor thing...and either way, whatever Gianfranco does, I'm sure it'll be great.

[Alan Davies]

delgs, on Jan 30 2012 - 03:51 AM, said:

Hi Gianfranco,

Thanks for the objects in mirrors for the F2 cars, I'm looking forward to it, looks very good so far. And thank you for all your other recent contributions of historically-correct helmets, driver suits etc. They're a real enhancement to the game!  

Just one thing about the mirrors: the current rims look a bit too thick to my eyes, and seem to be missing the white plastic seal between the rim and the glass that this type of mirror usually had. I've never seen any "bullet" mirrors with just a thick alloy rim and no seal visible. Somewhere I've got a pair of original racing mirrors made by Alexander, dating from 1964, and they have the white plastic seal. The modern repros have it too. Two pics of a Formula 2 Bt 23 cockpit below, hopefully you can just make out the white seals between rim and glass, and the overall proportions of the rim.

Actually, I feel bad about mentioning this, ( making extra work for you, when you're already doing a brilliant job!) and its a really minor thing, but I'm sure you'd want to get the detail right, if time allows. Either way, you're doing fantastic work, and its much appreciated, thank you again!

I don't see white plastic seals; I see the reflection of the rim in the mirror.  The latter picture of your mirrors with the seal look nothing like the in car pics.  Just saying.
I use car in mirrors for all the mods and I'm looking forward to the 67F2 complete addon.  Keep up the good work all.

[G.Spinning]

I have to admit that this discussion on the plastic seals made me a bit nervous giving me a bit of pressure.   But it was a good debate, not to criticize but to improve. So yesterday evening, rather than to make a new mirror  a re-did it the lola because there were few pixels around the exhaust  I was not happy with and I was afraid you could see it.

By the way it is flattering to see how much appreciations and now expectations you have on my small works. I am now at 7 mirrors done and 5 to go.  Sometime next week everything should be ready.

[Stefan Roess]

I am really looking forward to your objects in the mirrors update for F2!

And welcome to the inner circle of GPL!

[delgs]

G.Spinning, on Jan 31 2012 - 08:11 AM, said:

I have to admit that this discussion on the plastic seals made me a bit nervous giving me a bit of pressure.   But it was a good debate, not to criticize but to improve. So yesterday evening, rather than to make a new mirror  a re-did it the lola because there were few pixels around the exhaust  I was not happy with and I was afraid you could see it.

By the way it is flattering to see how much appreciations and now expectations you have on my small works. I am now at 7 mirrors done and 5 to go.  Sometime next week everything should be ready.

Certainly not my intention to criticise. Just for your interest, Walpres Racemaster mirrors were supplied in the 60's to BRM, Brabham and Ferrari, among others. It was a pretty generic racing part, back then. (I've dug up some more photos of original 60's Walpres Racemasters now, showing the seal clearly, but I can't find any period shots of them on F1 or F2 cars from the right angle. And, as has been pointed out, the seal can very easily look like a reflection.) Anyway, it was just a very, very minor note on authenticity, I just like to discuss these things because I'm really into 60's racing cars! I have absolutely no intention of creating any controversy, and the very LAST thing I would want to do is to put any pressure on you, Gianfranco. I'm a great admirer of your work, and, like everyone else, I look forward to seeing this latest addition to the fantastic F2 Mod.

[G.Spinning]

Hi Delgs,

indeed I appreciated your comments and pictures. At the end, for one or another reason I re-did all of them. I think they now look more real than before, also thanks to your advices. They are basically of two type (plus the ferrari which have another shape). The lotus are chromed. The other are darker and the ring is different. In all, you can guess a sort of seal or separation between mirror and ring. I am just packing them. They will be ready in post #1 in .... minutes.  

G.Spinning

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[Nurby Yogi]

Gianfranco, thanks for your nice work!