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Grip, Power And Glory Vs Gt Legends


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#1 qwertyce

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Posted Jul 09 2014 - 11:28 AM

power and glory has old cars with old components, gt legends old cars with modern components, so I should go faster in gtl, but I seem there's more grip in power and glory.

I'm trying with magny cours club track with lotus cortina, with almost same setup (identical setups can't be set up, some things like rear camber are fixed at different values, 0 vs -0,5), and i'm going just a little faster (52,02 vs 52,05) with power and glory, i feel a little more grip, i don't understand this, is power and glory more easy and so less realistic than gt legends? i feel in power and glory my cortina too easy to drive, and i'm just a noob, so in this moment i'm preferring the more challenging GTL  (I have read about too grip in GTR2 compared to GTR1, and GTL is more near to GTR1 than GTR2)

also, why are setup options so different for same car?  now i remember, tyre pressure max values in P&G are very higher than GTL, I couldn't set up same tyre pressures, and also minimum forward bar are quite different between P&G and GTL

Edited by qwertyce, Jul 09 2014 - 11:41 AM.


#2 David Wright Lo67

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Posted Jul 09 2014 - 01:15 PM

View Postqwertyce, on Jul 09 2014 - 11:28 AM, said:

power and glory has old cars with old components, gt legends old cars with modern components, so I should go faster in gtl, but I seem there's more grip in power and glory.

I'm trying with magny cours club track with lotus cortina, with almost same setup (identical setups can't be set up, some things like rear camber are fixed at different values, 0 vs -0,5), and i'm going just a little faster (52,02 vs 52,05) with power and glory, i feel a little more grip, i don't understand this, is power and glory more easy and so less realistic than gt legends? i feel in power and glory my cortina too easy to drive, and i'm just a noob, so in this moment i'm preferring the more challenging GTL  

It is misleading to think of GT Legends being old cars with modern components.  The rules in historic racing concerning components are quite strict.  They cannot use different brakes or dampers for example. The regulations require the use of Dunlop Vintage racing tyres hard compound.  The tyres are made in the same mold as the original 60s tyres and so are identical in size, tread and construction to their 60s counterparts and the compound has been around since 1970 and is intended to replicate the mid 60s compound.

It is perhaps more accurate to think of GT Legends as old cars with old components but with many years of development. The key difference is the engines usually produce more power - 40 years of tuning experience - and suspension spring stiffness - which was always free choice back in the 60s - has gone much stiffer.  

Aris's (our physics guy) left the team some time ago to work for Kunos on Assetto Corsa, but his intention was for the P&G 60s cars to match the grip of the GTL 60s cars.  Comparison is complicated as we usually offer a range of compounds and our cars have lift while the GTL cars don't.   I'm not sure how he made the comparison - perhaps by laptimes as you did.  If so perhaps he didn't take into account the P&G cars having less power so they should be slower rather than have the same laptime.  Whatever the cause, the 60s P&G cars do have more grip than their GTL counterparts.  I have taken over on physics and recently did some tests of my own to compare and the P&G Cortina has about 6% more grip than the GTL Cortina.  This is not a huge amount - you can go round corners 3% faster - but it is noticeable.

As a team we do not subscribe to the view that harder=more realistic, however as I say I think it was an error that the 60s cars have a bit more grip than the GTL cars.  

View Postqwertyce, on Jul 09 2014 - 11:28 AM, said:

also, why are setup options so different for same car?  now i remember, tyre pressure max values in P&G are very higher than GTL, I couldn't set up same tyre pressures, and also minimum forward bar are quite different between P&G and GTL

As stated above, suspension spring and roll-bar stiffness was always free under the 60s regulations.  Modern historic racers run under regulations designed to be the same as those 60s regulations and they use that freedom to run much stiffer cars.  The regulations allowed the fitment of a rear anti-roll bar even though  it wasn't standard on the road version of the Lotus Cortina.  We do know that rear anti-roll bars were used on racing Cortinas back in the 60s.  They could be used on historic racers too.  I'm not sure why the GTL Cortina doesn't have a rear anti-roll bar.  It could be historic racers don't use it or it could be to simplify the setup options on what is a beginners car in GTL.

I don't know what tyre pressures they run today but back in the 60s they ran much higher pressures than in GTL.  Indeed, the P&G pressures are still a bit on the low side.

Edited by David Wright Lo67, Jul 10 2014 - 02:26 AM.


#3 qwertyce

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Posted Jul 10 2014 - 12:58 PM

View PostDavid Wright Lo67, on Jul 09 2014 - 01:15 PM, said:

View Postqwertyce, on Jul 09 2014 - 11:28 AM, said:

power and glory has old cars with old components, gt legends old cars with modern components, so I should go faster in gtl, but I seem there's more grip in power and glory.

I'm trying with magny cours club track with lotus cortina, with almost same setup (identical setups can't be set up, some things like rear camber are fixed at different values, 0 vs -0,5), and i'm going just a little faster (52,02 vs 52,05) with power and glory, i feel a little more grip, i don't understand this, is power and glory more easy and so less realistic than gt legends? i feel in power and glory my cortina too easy to drive, and i'm just a noob, so in this moment i'm preferring the more challenging GTL  

It is misleading to think of GT Legends being old cars with modern components.  The rules in historic racing concerning components are quite strict.  They cannot use different brakes or dampers for example. The regulations require the use of Dunlop Vintage racing tyres hard compound.  The tyres are made in the same mold as the original 60s tyres and so are identical in size, tread and construction to their 60s counterparts and the compound has been around since 1970 and is intended to replicate the mid 60s compound.

It is perhaps more accurate to think of GT Legends as old cars with old components but with many years of development. The key difference is the engines usually produce more power - 40 years of tuning experience - and suspension spring stiffness - which was always free choice back in the 60s - has gone much stiffer.  

Aris's (our physics guy) left the team some time ago to work for Kunos on Assetto Corsa, but his intention was for the P&G 60s cars to match the grip of the GTL 60s cars.  Comparison is complicated as we usually offer a range of compounds and our cars have lift while the GTL cars don't.   I'm not sure how he made the comparison - perhaps by laptimes as you did.  If so perhaps he didn't take into account the P&G cars having less power so they should be slower rather than have the same laptime.  Whatever the cause, the 60s P&G cars do have more grip than their GTL counterparts.  I have taken over on physics and recently did some tests of my own to compare and the P&G Cortina has about 6% more grip than the GTL Cortina.  This is not a huge amount - you can go round corners 3% faster - but it is noticeable.

As a team we do not subscribe to the view that harder=more realistic, however as I say I think it was an error that the 60s cars have a bit more grip than the GTL cars.  

View Postqwertyce, on Jul 09 2014 - 11:28 AM, said:

also, why are setup options so different for same car?  now i remember, tyre pressure max values in P&G are very higher than GTL, I couldn't set up same tyre pressures, and also minimum forward bar are quite different between P&G and GTL

As stated above, suspension spring and roll-bar stiffness was always free under the 60s regulations.  Modern historic racers run under regulations designed to be the same as those 60s regulations and they use that freedom to run much stiffer cars.  The regulations allowed the fitment of a rear anti-roll bar even though  it wasn't standard on the road version of the Lotus Cortina.  We do know that rear anti-roll bars were used on racing Cortinas back in the 60s.  They could be used on historic racers too.  I'm not sure why the GTL Cortina doesn't have a rear anti-roll bar.  It could be historic racers don't use it or it could be to simplify the setup options on what is a beginners car in GTL.

I don't know what tyre pressures they run today but back in the 60s they ran much higher pressures than in GTL.  Indeed, the P&G pressures are still a bit on the low side.


thanks for info




Quote

Whatever the cause, the 60s P&G cars do have more grip than their GTL counterparts.


therefore, speaking about driving, can we consider GTL just a little more realistic than P&G? 6% isn't much, but not even little, although i'm a noob, i can feel it

#4 David Wright Lo67

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Posted Jul 11 2014 - 06:48 AM

View Postqwertyce, on Jul 10 2014 - 12:58 PM, said:

therefore, speaking about driving, can we consider GTL just a little more realistic than P&G? 6% isn't much, but not even little, although i'm a noob, i can feel it

There is more than just grip to consider when evaluating driving realism.  And if you run the hard compound tyre (red spot) there is only about 1.5% difference in grip between P&G and GTL so you have that option.  Or you can race in the wet :)

P&G was developed to give a different experience to GTL - softer suspension, no roll cages or LCD displays with GTR2s added feature of rain.  It wasn't designed to replace GTL.  If you prefer GTL then that's fine by me and the rest of the P&G mod team.  I still regularly run GTL and the single player career mode is excellent.

Edited by David Wright Lo67, Jul 11 2014 - 06:53 AM.


#5 qwertyce

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Posted Jul 11 2014 - 07:07 AM

View PostDavid Wright Lo67, on Jul 11 2014 - 06:48 AM, said:

View Postqwertyce, on Jul 10 2014 - 12:58 PM, said:

therefore, speaking about driving, can we consider GTL just a little more realistic than P&G? 6% isn't much, but not even little, although i'm a noob, i can feel it

There is more than just grip to consider when evaluating driving realism.  And if you run the hard compound tyre (red spot) there is only about 1.5% difference in grip between P&G and GTL so you have that option.  Or you can race in the wet :)

P&G was developed to give a different experience to GTL - softer suspension, no roll cages or LCD displays with GTR2s added feature of rain.  It wasn't designed to replace GTL.  If you prefer GTL then that's fine by me and the rest of the P&G mod team.  I still regularly run GTL and the single player career mode is excellent.

excellent, so i'll drive with both :up:

#6 jgf

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Posted Jul 11 2014 - 11:21 AM

I wonder if the track grip on some tracks is a pertinent factor in different lap times between GTL and P&G.  On some tracks where the creator has uploaded both GTL and GTR2 versions (as opposed to tracks merely converted from one sim to the other) I've noticed slightly different grip levels (usually 0.1 or less).

#7 mcmirande

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Posted Jul 14 2014 - 09:45 PM

Is there some online league racing GTL other than UKGTL?

I found that, at least in UKGTL, PnG has always more drivers than GTL. Is it for something in special or just because it's newer? I found both incredibly (and equally) good... with the possible advantage of GTL in the choice of add hundreds of historic cars.

Cheers, Marcos.

#8 Stefan Roess

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Posted Jul 16 2014 - 09:37 AM

View Postmcmirande, on Jul 14 2014 - 09:45 PM, said:

Is there some online league racing GTL other than UKGTL?

GTL: Altbierbude
http://www.altbierbu...dex.php?lang=en
-> besides league races there are server online 24/7 hosting 5 laps pick up races.
-> you need the Bierbuden Autoupdate programm to get all the addon cars and tracks to be able to join the server:
http://www.altbierbu.../id,62/lang,en/

PnG and also GTL: Gamers Crib
http://www.gamers-crib.com

Edited by Stefan Roess, Jul 16 2014 - 09:38 AM.


#9 mcmirande

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Posted Jul 16 2014 - 01:19 PM

thanks!

#10 one2fwee

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Posted Oct 05 2014 - 04:13 PM

i know this is an old topic but does this post help at all? :
Though thinking about it, it was made before David posted here so he has probably already taken into account in his reply.
To really know i guess it would be helpful to get Aris to expand on your points, however he kind of has a bit in that post. Also, i am sure he is rather busy ;)

http://www.nogriprac...259#post1654259

(Also i found it due to him linking to it in this topic http://www.nogriprac...ad.php?t=336010 )

It's interesting for me to read as I am still yet to try either GTL or P&G, but as i now have GTL and GTR2 i hope i will be able to fix my pc and try them out :)

Thanks!

#11 Warren Hall Jr.

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Posted Oct 06 2014 - 03:24 PM

GT Legends is indeed quite fun. However, the disc security plays havoc with newer Windows OS.
Warren

#12 David Wright Lo67

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Posted Oct 06 2014 - 03:33 PM

View PostWarren Hall Jr., on Oct 06 2014 - 03:24 PM, said:

GT Legends is indeed quite fun. However, the disc security plays havoc with newer Windows OS.
Warren

It does indeed.  You can use your on-line key to get a "free" copy of the Steam version which works on current OSs.

#13 Warren Hall Jr.

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Posted Oct 06 2014 - 03:42 PM

Well, that's good news! Thank's David. I'll have to try that.

#14 David Wright Lo67

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Posted Oct 07 2014 - 08:40 AM

Go to the game menu at the top of the steam screen.  Choose Activate a product on Steam ...

use the on-line key without dashes

#15 weldmetal12

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Posted Feb 27 2016 - 01:20 PM

I found a GT Legends box with manual and an unopened jewel case, at the thrift shop for $4.00. Always looking for a deal!

Thanks to the members of GTLW and their advice. I activated it on Steam last night, downloaded, installed and in services-disabled the steam client. Moved it to a seperate folder, admin rights...

and it's all my mine. BWaaaHAAHAAA!

Using a modified Nvidia Inspector setting for FSX disabled Vsync no shimmers on track, great! Now I can run some gtl mods without converting them,sweet.

Very grippy little mini and cortina, had to handbrake to get them to turn. I like to slide. ;)

The UI is terrible on 3 screens compared to P & G makes me appreciate their work even more. Thanks David, Duc and crew.

Edited by weldmetal12, Feb 27 2016 - 01:25 PM.





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