54 replies to this topic

[syd_drake]

I'm trying 55 mod for the first time, and I'm looking for some pointers on how to drive. I'm trying Lancia at Hockenheim 67, a relatively easy track.
So how do you brake with these cars? Feels like I'm locking the wheels at less than half the brake pedal travel (G25 pedals). And brakes go red on every corner. When I enter stadium sections, the little lamp on dash stays red through the whole thing, only getting back to green after T1.

[KARTM]

thats the point you dont use them , you do most of the braking with the downshifting and you start early

[Saiph]

(1) You say Hockenheim '67 is a "relatively easy track". It may be easy to drive, as most of the corners are simple to learn. But it's not an easy track for the brakes. There are very high-speed sections, followed by hard (or very hard) braking to enter crucial corners. This can cause your brake temperatures to shoot up if you don't use the correct braking techniques.

(2) Calibrate your controller correctly. If your brakes are locking with only half-travel on the brake controller, that suggests that some re-calibration might be in order.

(3) If you have re-calibrated and your brakes are still locking, you need to use them more gently. Any race driver can lock or overheat their brakes if they just push the pedal straight to the floor. To brake effectively, you need to take into consideration: (i) the type of brakes fitted to the real car, (ii) the road conditions, (iii) your tyre temperatures, (iv) any one of half a million other factors which affect braking performance.

(4) With the 1955 cars, engine braking was a crucial technique to learn. As you approach a corner, as well as using the brakes, change down a gear, don't blip the throttle to match the revs as you might do with later cars, then let your foot off the clutch gently, and you can effectively use your clutch plates as an extra form of braking. For some tracks, (such as Hockenheim '67 when entering the stadium section) you will need to repeat this technique on each downshift to get the car slowed down enough. 1955 car engines had impressive compression ratios, so you could safely use engine braking to slow you down without worrying too much about over-revving the engine and watching your cylinder head become the first satellite in orbit.

In my humble opinion, the GPL 1955 mod is the first mod which really makes it necessary for the driver to take into consideration the limits of the car technology of the time. Learning how to stop a 1955 car is not the same as stopping a 1967 car. If you can learn the difference, and learn the different techniques involved, then you will enjoy the 1955 mod.

Edited by Saiph, May 19 2020 - 04:42 PM.

[jgf]

Much like Indy roadsters of that era, or modern NASCARE on restrictor plate tracks, you use the momentum of the car rather than the brakes.  Smoothly off the throttle approaching the turn, downshift if necessary before turn-in, smoothly back on the throttle after the apex;  a few turns may require light braking to settle the car on approach, but you want to use the brakes as little as possible.  Plan for the next turn, better to hold speed in a lower gear and be ready for the next apex than to accelerate then immediately have to slow with the brakes.  A simple track like Brooklands, or perhaps Monza, is a good place to practice the technique.

[PTRACER]

I would advise using your Logitech profiler to limit the travel of the brake pedal. You should be able to click on the brake pedal and do that. If not, then put a tennis ball or something under the pedal.

Although I have a Fanatec pedal set now with the pedal set to 60%, which is the only way I can drive the 55s.

Edited by PTRACER, May 19 2020 - 09:37 PM.

[Arturo Pereira]

Lift off early, then brake very gently while downshifting also very gently. Try to get the brakes into the red ONLY at a few tracks where you will have enough time before the next turn to get them into the green again, like Reims, Monza and more of these kind.
At tracks like Monaco you can´t do this so you need to lift off earlier and use the gearbox to help with the brakes. You will find soon where to use one of these techniques, but never abuse the brakes with the 55mod.

It takes practice. The 55 mod braking is specially demanding, but very rewarding when you can get used to it.

[syd_drake]

OK, thanks for all the advice. Brakes are supposed to be calibrated ok, I mostly drive Assetto Corsa these days, and I can brake normally with most cars there. I also use full rotation on my G25 in AC, but had to reduce this to 210 degrees in GPL, the car just wasn't rotating enough.
So engine braking, early downshifts, only lightly braking?

[KARTM]

syd_drake, on May 20 2020 - 05:28 AM, said:

OK, thanks for all the advice. Brakes are supposed to be calibrated ok, I mostly drive Assetto Corsa these days, and I can brake normally with most cars there. I also use full rotation on my G25 in AC, but had to reduce this to 210 degrees in GPL, the car just wasn't rotating enough.
So engine braking, early downshifts, only lightly braking?

i have a  g920  so the brake shouldnt be a problem ,but yes for the steering , i use a 240 deg  setting on the Logitech software but  dont forget the  steering ratio in the gpl car setup ,  around 1/15 work fine for me

[Border Reiver]

At all costs avoid ever being on the brake and throttle at the same time!

It is also often better to use a technique more like cadence braking where the brakes are used in short bursts to the point of locking and then let off again rather than a long and sustained application which would ultimately build up more heat in the brakes. By alternating firm braking and downshifting to benefit from engine braking it is actually possible to get fairly short overall braking distances without overheating the brakes too much, but this takes practice and also learning a new approach as Saiph described above. Braking points are earlier than other mods and strategy also comes into play when trying to out brake people too!

The goal is to find a sustainable pattern for brake use around the track as a whole so that on successive laps the brakes are recovered enough when you need them. Pick a point on the lap when the brakes are "green" and then next lap check if they are still green at that same point. If they have gone yellow then you are exceeding your budget and will over heat the brakes and "run out". For sure you can go for a quick lap and overuse the brakes to set a faster time, but that is not sustainable and overall will probably cost you more time in a race waiting for the brakes to cool down than finding a sustainable average pace to use.

It is a mind set and strategy thing and in some ways it is more about suvival and management than trying to always be going at 10/10. Reading descriptions by Taruffi and Jenkinson, the real cars weren't driven at 10/10 for lap after lap, indeed most would run at 5 or 6/10 with only the occaisional effort burst of 7 or 8/10. You need to leave an extra margin of error that later mods do not require which makes the 55 mod cars very different, but also very rewarding once you get into the mind set as Saiph says too!

Rob

[Roger_F]

As Rob has just stated above, being on the brake and gas at the same time is a real problem in the 55 mod.

I recently switched to right foot breaking and found most of my brake overheating problems in the 55 Mod disappeared.  I must have been slightly riding the brakes with my left foot braking technique.  This was not an obvious problem on any other mod but it had a significant effect on the 55 mod.  

The 55 mod, in particular, feels much better with a gearshift, clutch, and right foot braking.  The added realism also comes with an increased need to focus and to improve your driving technique.

Roger

[Michkov]

I usually go for the steady state approach, go out and drive around normally at one point you reach a point where everything stays the same and you'll get used to braking points and performance across a lap. From there you can experiment with managing the brakes. For Hockenheim you want cool brakes going into the Motodrome I reckon, as it's the biggest stop. Which also means you can forget about hard stops for Sachskurve or the final turn since the brakes are still boiling at that point. Keep in mind the brakes still work in the red just in a very ineffective way.

[Saiph]

Michkov, on May 20 2020 - 04:12 PM, said:

......... Keep in mind the brakes still work in the red just in a very ineffective way.

About as strongly as my Granny blowing on the front of the car to slow it down!  

[gliebzeit]

Great 'story' in emojis, Keith !!

[syd_drake]

I just tried right foot braking (still automatic clutch, left foot kind of resting ), and it was much better. I even manage to get through the stadium section without getting the brakes to go red most of the time. Since I've always been left foot braking, I thought it would be difficult, but it feels surprisingly good .
Thanks for all the helpful advice.

[Michkov]

Saiph, on May 21 2020 - 03:39 AM, said:

About as strongly as my Granny blowing on the front of the car to slow it down!  

That's why I said you need to get everything up to "working" temps, because then you'll get the same braking distances each and every lap. Sure the distances are abysmal compared to the ones on cold brakes, but they are consistent. Which allows me to get rid of consciously needing to manage the brakes. That part of the brain can then be used to get more laptime out of the car. Not saying this is the right way, but it works for me.

[Arturo Pereira]

One last point: with the configuration of the cockpits in the 1960s and well into the 70s, it was IMPOSSIBLE to brake with the left foot, period.

For example, the pedals configuration of the Lotus 72 and a 1960s Lotus:

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•  LOT72PARALLEL96.jpg   75.16K   52 downloads
•  1962 monza clark lotus 25 cockpit.jpg   74.51K   54 downloads

[jgf]

"...it was IMPOSSIBLE to brake with the left foot..."

In many cars, yes.  But, to play devil's advocate, in the real world a driver subconsciously processes so much tactile information - vibrations, g-forces, sounds, etc. - that are completely lacking in even the best sims, and even in a helmet has more peripheral vision than in a sim, that taking advantage of left foot braking, paddle shifters, etc. somewhat balances the loss of all that input.  (Somewhat ... I was a much better driver in RL than in any sim.)

[KARTM]

sorry , karting is since his birth 60 years ago with left foot braking , all formula cars in  the last 30 years are , rallyman use that technique since the 60s , its not a problem at all  to use left foot braking with the 55mod you just have to do it the right way , so as in any other mods ,whats wrong  is the alien type of driving in the other mods,with unrealistic  diff setting and people using a lot of brake and gaz at the same time wich is only possible  because the brake temperature is not in the physic, to be left or right foot braking is irrelevant

Edited by KARTM, May 22 2020 - 07:55 AM.

[KARTM]

even Chapman was fiddling with the concept of left foot braking  since the early sixty (lotus 18)with a crash box here the lotus 76 of 1974

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•  Lotus-76_1156sc.jpg   427.2K   42 downloads

Edited by KARTM, May 22 2020 - 05:39 AM.

[paul_v]

KARTM, on May 22 2020 - 05:08 AM, said:

even Chapman was fiddling with the concept of left foot braking  since the early sixty (lotus 18)with a crash box here the lotus 76 of 197

KARTM,

I like that idea. Very clever, but very simple.

Do it ever get used or just a prototype?

KARTM, on May 22 2020 - 05:08 AM, said:

even Chapman was fiddling with the concept of left foot braking  since the early sixty (lotus 18)with a crash box here the lotus 76 of 197

KARTM,

I like that idea. Very clever, but very simple.

Do it ever get used or just a prototype?