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V.R. Metaphysical Aesthetics


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#21 sky

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Posted Mar 12 2010 - 11:37 PM

no worries grego. i have a track somewhere showing someone's trackrecord of 8 secs. not that likely i'd say. and no, it's not a quarter mile dragstrip either ;), so whatever the ingame gpl screen says - it's not what you should aim for. oh also, i noticed that once i fiddled with the ai strength settings in gem - i had them set to 0.5 or so originally (FOOL!) - they were doing laptimes and speeds i couldn't match (in the '69s) even with no wings and incredible gear ratios. i was 20 kph slower in reims! small wonder they were faster than the actual records. and once they beat me to pulp in a race, their laptimes would stick as the laprecords on the track page. bummer. so i had to wipe them all again, after adjusting the ai speed to something sensible lol. might be what happened in your case to. ai going at 125% speed or something could probably pull a 55sec lap at the glen.

john, i'll try the cockpit cam file too once i'm back home (in 2 weeks). i've experimented a bit with fov stuff in the game before i left. but that was at a time where i couldn't get anything done after dropping like 50secs of my rank in a week or so lol. i had really low fov and also some fov up to 90ish i think, but without changing the camera position. and of course, if i could a)fford it or b)e bothered enough to actually build one, i'd prefer a mockup cockpit and a projector & screen to go with it to get the immersion going - a helmet and gloves and a matching overall (one of the gp originals remakes of the steve mc queen gulf jacket) now that's a bit over the top. the jacket might work, but gloves & helmet, nah.
seeing remco's setup in the unofficial beamer thread (it's called something else, like 200hz screen or so) in action.. wow nice! that got the envy levels up :D

#22 Paddy the Irishman

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Posted Mar 13 2010 - 04:41 AM

Quote from Grego :- " objects ......... also travel into two different direction at the same time."

That is exactly what I feel is happening when I am trying to improve my laptimes :rolleyes:

#23 grego

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Posted Mar 13 2010 - 04:48 AM

[quote name='Paddy the Irishman' date='13 March 2010 - 10:41 PM' timestamp='1268476860' post='43561']
Quote from Grego :- " objects ......... also travel into two different direction at the same time."

That is [u]exactly[/u] what I feel is happening when I am trying to improve my laptimes :rolleyes:quote}

That's perfectly normal, you and the car are moving forward, and the trees and the spectators are moving backwards.............................
WARNING: Do not drink a couple of whiskeys and then look into the rear mirrors as you drive, you'll experience the universe expanding :lol::lol::lol:
Now, something completely different : Ever done any psychedelics ? :artist:

#24 Paddy the Irishman

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Posted Mar 13 2010 - 04:55 AM

Strangely, or perhaps not, my fastest lap at Monza was one afternoon after a lunch which included two glasses of wine and a liqueur.  
Perhaps I was more relaxed..... :blink:

#25 grego

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Posted Mar 13 2010 - 02:41 PM

View PostPaddy the Irishman, on Mar 13 2010 - 04:55 AM, said:

Strangely, or perhaps not, my fastest lap at Monza was one afternoon after a lunch which included two glasses of wine and a liqueur.
Perhaps I was more relaxed..... :blink:
:iconcur:
I think you might be right here with the relaxing bit. Of course all people have their own way of achieving this .
I find that i am also doing better when i am relaxed rather than being all "tensed up"
Cool, calm and collected.

#26 John Woods

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Posted Mar 13 2010 - 03:17 PM

Confidence...because you know the technology
Courage...because you believe the technology
Calm Down...the technology will do the work
Concentrate...let the technology "happen."

Pedal to the metal.

#27 sky

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Posted Mar 13 2010 - 04:54 PM

the thing with putting too much pressure on yourself is you're probably spending half the time thinking "try not to hit that wall this time", "brake earlier there","don't mess abo.. ach blast". at lest that's what happens to me all the time. i'm really at my best when i don't exactly think about what i'm doing but just do it. as soon as i start consciously thinking about what it is i am doing and how, it goes tit's up. every time.

#28 benzman

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Posted Mar 13 2010 - 10:03 PM

View Postsky, on Mar 13 2010 - 04:54 PM, said:

the thing with putting too much pressure on yourself is you're probably spending half the time thinking "try not to hit that wall this time", "brake earlier there","don't mess abo.. ach blast". at lest that's what happens to me all the time. i'm really at my best when i don't exactly think about what i'm doing but just do it. as soon as i start consciously thinking about what it is i am doing and how, it goes tit's up. every time.
This is probably why, when you check your times you find that your fastest lap wasn't the one you thought it would be.

#29 John Woods

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Posted Mar 14 2010 - 10:48 AM

View Postgrego, on Mar 12 2010 - 04:20 PM, said:

quote But the real world is actually objectively there and there is external cause, whereas the virtual world is not actually objectively there, the user is the cause, (given the online caveat), and changes in virtual reality are the effect. Is the virtual world aposteriori, unlike Plato's cave, as the effect of conception is the cause of perception? end quote.

While I can greatly appreciate where you are heading with this, both old Tantric Bhuddist texts AND now any scientist that emerges itself into quantum physics will disagree with you on just about every level.
Platos cave with its assumption of "virtual world" versus "real world " is kinda obselete.

Now we are dealing with Quantum realms, where objects can paradoxically be in two places at the same time.
There, on a subatomic level, objects can not only be in two places at the same time but also travel into two different direction at the same time.


where are we heading with all this ?
I don't know but if i think about it too long i get a head ache Posted Image


There was a theory back in the 1800s I think was called the Fitzgerald-Lorenz Contraction, that I recall had to do with the math of two straws traveling at each other, (way beyond my interest or diligence to master), which at that time was considered critical to understanding the nature of the Universe.  Thinking about your references led me to considering whether the interface of virtual reality and reality are not similar to both the idea of two exactly similar straws traveling through space and subatomic particles being in two places traveling in different directions. Strikes me there are lots of symetries.
Plato's guys in a cave is valid within the range of physiological perception and analysis of consequent conception of what a particular dataset of perception means. Its what humans do, not "what is."

Edited by John Woods, Mar 14 2010 - 10:49 AM.


#30 grego

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Posted Mar 14 2010 - 01:28 PM

[/quote]
There was a theory back in the 1800s I think was called the Fitzgerald-Lorenz Contraction, that I recall had to do with the math of two straws traveling at each other, (way beyond my interest or diligence to master), which at that time was considered critical to understanding the nature of the Universe. Thinking about your references led me to considering whether the interface of virtual reality and reality are not similar to both the idea of two exactly similar straws traveling through space and subatomic particles being in two places traveling in different directions. Strikes me there are lots of symetries.
Plato's guys in a cave is valid within the range of physiological perception and analysis of consequent conception of what a particular dataset of perception means. Its what humans do, not "what is."
[/quote]

hhhhmmmm,yes, ahh, hmmm(scratching beard)...............hhhhmmm. Virtual reality versus reality OR realities........
May I ask if you have ever seen the movie titled : """"What the "BLEEP" Do We Know !? """"
That one will either twist your noggin or straighten it out :lol:
Still, highly recommendable

#31 John Woods

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Posted Mar 14 2010 - 02:36 PM

Grego,

Definitely will check it out..."What the (blank) do we know?" is one of my favorite sayings, typically, when someone is trying to explain to me how ancient Egyptians built the pyramids.
Do you have a link?
See ya.

Edited by John Woods, Mar 14 2010 - 04:01 PM.


#32 John Woods

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Posted Mar 20 2010 - 11:21 AM

There is an interest in improving all aspects of GPL simulator experience. This interest at times appears in the context of portraying an experience of real circumstance, that is, as if the user is doing something else. Given that interest, one aspect is portraying a view that is "most possible real."
In reality I think we will all agree trees and leaves move and seem to "flicker" when the wind is just right. Also, there is lots of background light coming through as branches and leaves randomly shift against the inconsistent wind.
So my guess, (very big guess), is each independent tree.srb would need to be an animated multi-mip structure reacting in sequential harmony to adjacent trees before anything but static simblance of reality can be acheived. The same is true for animals, banners, clouds, and people. There is distraction everywhere, all the time.  
In the meantime, GPL drivers are blasting past a portrayal of "reality" that is very distinctly not dynamically real except, maybe only a little more symbolically, when using 36fps and getting 34fps or a display rate interference pattern, the tops of the trees may flicker, at least more than with 60hz/60fps sync. So maybe something that has been annoying out of the corner of our eyes was actually something closer to actual reality, in which we would, if really barreling down a straight, totally ignore the leaves. And also, maybe there are opportunities to take what is considered dissonant distortion, or other irregularities, and further enhance the uniquely GPL experience. Moire patterns generated by Mandelbrot sets = pinetree1.srb?

Edited by John Woods, Mar 24 2010 - 01:09 PM.


#33 atumno

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Posted Mar 28 2010 - 04:11 PM

hello jason,

sorry i jump into this thread two weeks late, i just found it. and although i read the whole thread and i realize the idea is to give an idea how to possibly improve laptimes, i hope it is ok that i mostly refer to the mataphysical parts of the first post.



some of what you said resembled some of my own thoughts, but i had a different interpretation foil.

as grego already has pointed out your use of plato is inaccurate. but your experience surely is an interesting impression. while grego might call this old-fashioned too it seemed closer to mcluhan's theory of media to me.

your experience resembles somewhat to waking up from a kind of 'hypnosis'. You say you suddenly realised that you drive a computer.

according to mcluhan, media, esp. those that emphasize one sense above others, have a tendency to hypnotize the user.

any media has an effect. stone writings, letters, telephone, tv, computers, they all change the world of those who use them, the society that uses them. it's the effect of the media itself, it's never the program (content) of a media. the changes that the telephone brought into a society are not caused by it being used to call an emergency, order a pizza, cancel a relationship or whatever. It makes conversation faster and timelines tighter. But it also has a tendency to focus your concentration to the hearing sense while distracting attention from the other senses. esp if the connection is bad you have to concentrate harder to understand what is said, and you block other impressions. you focus more and more on the media, and usually this goes mostly unnoticed. this might be a rough example of what mcluhan calls hypnosis.

whatever it is that computers and their interconnection do to our society, it makes no difference wether you use it to play gta, write emails, do cad or whatever.

you suddenly noticed that, no matter how realistic and immersive the simulation becomes, its still only a computer running a program. it's even not correct that we drive a computer. we manipulate data. and we are banned by it. the actual occupation is just the 'theme', tastes are different, for us it's racing that draws us to the machine. in reality we react to flickerings on a monitor. the fact that it's not passive consumption but 'interaction' only makes it more immersive, hypnotizing.


i have no idea wether this can make any difference to laptimes, but that's what jason's thoughts stirred in me. mcluhan might be outdated, i still think it's an interesting perspective.

#34 John Woods

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Posted Mar 29 2010 - 09:25 AM

Hi nixda, welcome to the real world, :').

Thanks for your interesting and helpful comments,

I have to review my Plato apparently, after many years maybe my idea of what "guys in a cave" was about is as you say "not accurate," although, so far I am not aware of anyone making the point of how it is not accurate, only the claim.  And it seems now we need a review of McLuhan as well.

Indeed, breaking out of hypnosis seems just as reasonable a way to put it as having an instant karmic revelation.

The point of improving lap times, and enhancing driving experience, follows from an interest in eliminating errors in assumptions about what is really happening, that effects perception and conception. So the first insight was recognition of "driving a computer" which I think is exactly the same as "manipulating data," which in both cases requires not participating in a self-deluding hypnotic fantasy about driving a Lotus, Ferrari, or Brabham.
One important point maybe misunderstood, that follows from the idea of driving a computer, is of first cause, which I think is critical here. The user creates the display by making "driver inputs." Reacting to the display implies it is the first cause, when actually the user is the cause of all display effects. I think this is very, very significant. It is what I mean by "driving the computer" rather than reacting to it, and the way to drive it is to manipulate the data so the display changes as the user intends.

No doubt, edits to follow...

Edited by John Woods, Mar 29 2010 - 01:05 PM.


#35 atumno

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Posted Mar 29 2010 - 01:52 PM

ok, i'll try to explain why i think the cave example does not apply. (attention: my rendition of the cave example is abbreviated to keep the post (relatively) short. and i'm not a native english speaker and have never read an english plato translation, so mistakes and misunderstandings are very likely)
from what i understood (which is few and incomplete) plato's cave is an illustration of what he calls ideas. it's a path of ascending insights into our incomplete conceptions of what is 'real'. the men bound in the cave believe the shadows to be real beings because they don't know anything else. they don't know about the fire burning behind them which casts the shadows on the wall, shadows of beings that the bound men even cannot imagine, their world does not expand beyond shadows on a wall. that is the situation of most men. he has to be untied from his bounds and to leave his acustomed place to see the fire, the beings and the shadows to understand his prior misconception. he even might leave the cave and learn that even the cave with the fire and the beings is only a very limited and inacurate conception of what the real (outside) world is like. this way will be painfull (the sunlight will hurt his eyes which are acustomed to a dark cave), but after this he surely will never return to his original situation, bound before a wall showing faint shadows.

even the most serious wow addict does not believe the virtual world to be reality, he knows what his real outside world looks like. but he very probably will not know that this 'real' outside world is just shadows on a wall, according to plato's cave image.




for the prime mover thought,

i'd say you don't 'create the display'. i know what you mean, but since you started this as a metaphysical topic i guess it is allowed to point out that in strict methodology this is not correct. the display is defined by the program code, which was written by the programmer. before that a machine had to exist that could run this code (a physical visual display). and so on...
If I start up the machine, launch the sim and start to drive the virtual car i just act and react within the options defined by the program. i am the cause that the program is running, but philosophically this is hardly 'first cause'. however, first cause is subject to debate, and your conception might be valid from a certain viewpoint.

But remember, ideas that are called invalid in a certain reference system may prove fruitful as the reference system erodes. so don't be set off by these objections.

and the result of your idea seems to be pretty beneficial, i don't critizize anything of that, on the contrary i will give it a try (i hardly race these days, unforrtunately). i just talk about the philosophical implications that were aroused.
the fact that at least some of the aliens use rollbar view demonstrates that a distant non-immersive approach seems to work pretty well...

cheers,
atumno

Edited by nixda, Mar 29 2010 - 02:01 PM.


#36 John Woods

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Posted Mar 29 2010 - 02:47 PM

Thank you nixda, very good comments I think and really to the point(s).
Scanned through "The Mechanical Bride" out of Understanding Media this afternoon. Not enough time yet to get into details. (So, later).

Perhaps a better way to put it then is "change the display," rather than create it, although I guess even given the specifics of creation there is an element of it still, as while the artist may not have made the brush, the paint, or the canvas, no one argues about who created the work of art, or whether a driver "creates" a proper racing line even though someone else built the car and track. But the important issue is whether a user reacts to the display or not. I say do not make the mistake of reacting to the display. Rather, make the display happen based on knowledge/awareness of what is possible.

#37 atumno

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Posted Mar 29 2010 - 04:29 PM

i'd recommend to read at least the first chapter, and probably the fourth (2 & 3 are a little strange but worth a try), before getting to the single media analysis (like the mechanical bride) of the second part.


View PostJohn Woods, on Mar 29 2010 - 02:47 PM, said:

Perhaps a better way to put it then is "change the display," rather than create it, although I guess even given the specifics of creation there is an element of it still, as while the artist may not have made the brush, the paint, or the canvas, no one argues about who created the work of art, or whether a driver "creates" a proper racing line even though someone else built the car and track. But the important issue is whether a user reacts to the display or not. I say do not make the mistake of reacting to the display. Rather, make the display happen based on knowledge/awareness of what is possible.

sure you are right there. you should be ahead of the car, make it do what you want it to, not just react to it's stubborness. still, you have to react to the environment (and you do it with the car).
and i agree completely that creation is possible using tools that were not made by oneself, you create a racing line as you said, you even could do writing or painting with skidmarks, there is no doubt about that. there is nothing wrong with saying that you are the cause of what the (virtual) car does. the idea of 'first cause' is a philosophical mindgame looking for a cause that is no more caused by anything else. some see god as such a final cause, others won't.


still, i think your basic idea sounds worth trying. i usually tend to let myself get drawn into the illusion to some extent. I will try if i can deliberately keep myself out of it and if that offers some advantage for me. perhaps i can cure one problem with this: i tend to cramp my hands way too tigth on the wheel and tend to get a pain after some time. i reduced ff when i noticed it, but maybe your approach can be helpful too. maybe the statement 'stay ahead of the car' could be modified to 'stay ahead of the machine'...

Edited by nixda, Mar 29 2010 - 05:03 PM.


#38 John Woods

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Posted Mar 30 2010 - 07:57 PM

An important distinction between more macroscopic versions of definition and classification is the interface of an infinite universe and a finite universe. For instance, a billiards table is a finite universe and with respect to it a player is the prime mover, in all respects the first cause and when at the table in total omnipresent control of that universe. That's a poolshooters job, and the better they are at it the more they will demonstrate their dominion over their universe.

At any given point on a GPL racing line, What is the immediate goal?

It is to maintain the line.

So, what is the GPL racing line?

A. It is a projection of mathematically certain fantasy.

B. It is not the same as a real track racing line, whether road course, closed circuit, or oval, because it is more theoretical or "perfect." It is as chess is to violence.

1. Both the car models and the track models are imperfect representations of reality, but are unique systems entirely perfect in themselves and they stand alone.

2. In reality, there are environmental factors of little significance to the GPL racing line that are not represented in simulation.

C. The consequence of a specific sequential set of user inputs displayed at a future time.

D. All of the above.

Edited by John Woods, Apr 09 2010 - 07:21 AM.


#39 John Woods

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Posted Apr 26 2010 - 07:47 AM

Here's some images to illustrate points made in this thread:

Attached Files


Edited by John Woods, May 03 2010 - 09:09 PM.


#40 John Woods

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Posted May 21 2010 - 01:00 PM

Found this today on Wikipedia under heading "3D projection."

DiagramPosted Image

To determine which screen x coordinate corresponds to a point at Ax,Az multiply the point coordinates by:

Posted Imagethe same works for the screen y coordinate:

Posted Image(where Ax and Ay are coordinates occupied by the object before the perspective transform)

* * *

This seems to confirm the necessity of configuring and tuning each user's console to their special perception. (This capacity is almost a unique ability of Grand Prix Legends by virtue of independent utilities). But this does not resolve issues about dynamic events and when they occur versus how they are presented by the display and FF, versus when the user experiences them.

Edited by John Woods, May 21 2010 - 01:04 PM.





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