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Revs / Power Bands, Etc


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#1 Ronnie Nilsson

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Posted Aug 30 2015 - 01:21 PM

Excuse a noobish question, but I've been wondering about power bands and revs in GPL.  I've no idea how realistic it is, but especially in somewhere like the Nurburgring, where there are so many varied corners, I often wonder whether to short-shift early, or take the revs to the max.  Any advice?  I'm principally thinking about the Lotus, if that makes any difference? :)

#2 Wozza_UK

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Posted Aug 30 2015 - 01:29 PM

A good thing to do is watch the AI or download a replay and see what other people do.

As far as short-shifting is concerned as far as I'm concerned that's always personal choice. If you feel the need to short-shift then do so.

I understand what you mean however. It would be nice if the game told us where peak bhp and the correct red line was for each car. It's an old game however so they probably didn't even think about it. In rFactor you can see these figures in the cars set up screen.

#3 Pete Gaimari

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Posted Aug 30 2015 - 01:49 PM

I only short shift if i'm looking for grip. Otherwise I shift the Lotus at 9000rpm. The real DFV is suppose to have a 9200-9400rpm limit, but in GPL that will blow the engine in a long race.

#4 Ronnie Nilsson

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Posted Aug 30 2015 - 01:58 PM

And obviously, the DFV changed over the years, to have a higher RPM.  I think the 67 version could only rev to 9000 - correct me if I'm wrong.  Normally, I do only shift at 9000, but with the Ring, there are occasions where I feel I have to short shift, otherwise it would mean I am flogging the car at 9000 in (say) 2nd gear for a few seconds.  Am I correct in short shifting earlier so I don't stay at the max revs for a few seconds?

#5 John Woods

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Posted Aug 30 2015 - 02:05 PM

Horsepower and torque graphs /car are available thru GEM+ in Setup Manager and in Race Engineer and iirc Setup Assistant 65.
SA65 provides a very nice optimum gearing routine for specific top end target.

RN, lengthen second and shorten third, just a bit?
Short shift into third as early as possible but do not allow RPMs to fall off below 6500 in 67Lotus.
Always stay in the highest possible gear and shift the least number of times possible.

Just my opinion, questons and guesses.

Edited by John Woods, Aug 30 2015 - 02:10 PM.


#6 Ronnie Nilsson

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Posted Aug 30 2015 - 02:10 PM

Thanks John, I may well do that. I'm using a Chris Moses setup, which is beautiful.  IMO, the Lotus has the best chassis - it's just the massive power that makes it tricky to drive - but this setup is lovely.  So gently responsive to turn-braking (or whatever it's called). :)

#7 Pete Gaimari

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Posted Aug 30 2015 - 03:10 PM

I was talking about the 67 DFV Ronnie. I wasn't sure if it was 9200rpm, or 9400rpm? I'm thinking it was 9200rpm. I know it was more than 9000rpm.

I got that from David Wright. The guru of facts.

#8 Pete Gaimari

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Posted Aug 30 2015 - 03:16 PM

View PostRonnie Nilsson, on Aug 30 2015 - 02:10 PM, said:

Thanks John, I may well do that. I'm using a Chris Moses setup, which is beautiful.  IMO, the Lotus has the best chassis - it's just the massive power that makes it tricky to drive - but this setup is lovely.  So gently responsive to turn-braking (or whatever it's called). :)

Of course it will be solid on turn in. They have 85/30/6 diff settings. Very stable, but don't turn well. Too much understeer.

Keep in mind short shifting is only an advantage when fighting for grip. Otherwise, redline every gear for the fastest times. Watch the aliens replays. The AI never short shift.

#9 John Woods

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Posted Aug 30 2015 - 05:55 PM

Very sure brr confirmed using science of graphing things that the GPL 67Lotus optimum shift point is 9200rpm.

Guessing we could argue there are two shifting modes: 1) hotlapping for best single lap time, and 2), cruising along holding postion, on pace with the field and making sure you finish the race.

Edited by John Woods, Aug 30 2015 - 05:57 PM.


#10 Pete Gaimari

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Posted Aug 30 2015 - 08:11 PM

Hot lappers speedshift, and bring the rpm way up.

#11 Saiph

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Posted Aug 31 2015 - 01:02 AM

View PostPete Gaimari, on Aug 30 2015 - 08:11 PM, said:

Hot lappers speedshift, and bring the rpm way up.
Not all. I can't stand speedshifting, it sounds so unrealistic. I never do it, even if I'm trying for a good time.

#12 Pete Gaimari

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Posted Aug 31 2015 - 08:12 AM

I was talking about the ones that do it. Not many do it in races, and get away with it for long. So, I call it a hot lappers method.

#13 Ronnie Nilsson

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Posted Aug 31 2015 - 09:07 AM

I've lengthened 2nd and 3rd by a notch, and I'm red-lining it more. :)

#14 John Woods

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Posted Aug 31 2015 - 09:56 AM

View PostRonnie Nilsson, on Aug 31 2015 - 09:07 AM, said:

I've lengthened 2nd and 3rd by a notch, and I'm red-lining it more. :)

Just being clear, my suggestion was to bring 2nd and 3rd closer together.
From the original description, it seems 2nd is running out of engine too early, forcing a shift to 3rd just before braking, thus the question about short shifting.
So, lengthen 2nd, if possible even enough to stay in for the whole run, or shorten 3rd to allow an earlier upshift that remains in the 90 to100 percent power range,  or shorten 3rd, and maybe 2nd also, and take the straight in 3rd.
At the Ring, the only time top gear is required is on the long straight, so there can be a wider gap between 4th and 5th and lower gears can be closer together.

Edited by John Woods, Aug 31 2015 - 09:57 AM.


#15 twinpotter

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Posted Aug 31 2015 - 09:57 AM

Sorry for been a heathen here. Don't know how to explain this and wether its relevant but here goes.
Firstly when changing up a gear how far away can you be from the redline in that particular gear and still achieve a smooth change without lifting off throttle. I believe if you change too quickly without lifting off you can damage engine as well as going too far into redline for a long period?
I say this and this is the bit that maybe not relevant but in a modern F1 racing sim with modern gearbox and flip gear change on steer wheel I read a bit about this games set up tips. Sorry forgot game title.
But the basic statement if I remember was obviously set your top gear so you hit top end of that on the longest straight before corner. Also when going through gears it is better to not change right at top by redline but a fraction or so before as hitting powerband bang on Will give you bigger drop off especially going to next gear. In other words you can keep a smooth momentum and optimize your speed,performance and track time?

TP:

Edited by twinpotter, Aug 31 2015 - 10:01 AM.


#16 Ronnie Nilsson

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Posted Aug 31 2015 - 10:50 AM

Sorry John, I probably didn't explain fully.  Both 2nd and 3rd were maxing out too early, hence I gave both more leg room. :)

#17 Pete Gaimari

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Posted Aug 31 2015 - 11:02 AM

View Posttwinpotter, on Aug 31 2015 - 09:57 AM, said:

Sorry for been a heathen here. Don't know how to explain this and wether its relevant but here goes.
Firstly when changing up a gear how far away can you be from the redline in that particular gear and still achieve a smooth change without lifting off throttle. I believe if you change too quickly without lifting off you can damage engine as well as going too far into redline for a long period?
I say this and this is the bit that maybe not relevant but in a modern F1 racing sim with modern gearbox and flip gear change on steer wheel I read a bit about this games set up tips. Sorry forgot game title.
But the basic statement if I remember was obviously set your top gear so you hit top end of that on the longest straight before corner. Also when going through gears it is better to not change right at top by redline but a fraction or so before as hitting powerband bang on Will give you bigger drop off especially going to next gear. In other words you can keep a smooth momentum and optimize your speed,performance and track time?

TP:

Shifting the Lotus 49 in GPL is not like shifting modern cars in other same with paddle shifts. Those are taken full throttle, because they have a throttle cut on them.

In GPL we need to lift for shifts. At least you should be. If you bring the rpm to 9000 it will never go past that for a shift. The tel-tale red needle shows that. As a matter of fact the red needle will tell you if you screwed up during a race. The goal after a race is to have the red needle right on 9000rpm. Then you know all your upshifts and downshifts were correct for the whole race. You might have short shifted, but you never exceeded red line.

#18 twinpotter

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Posted Aug 31 2015 - 11:28 AM

I first played gpl and always went right up to max range in each gear.But realized you can still change slightly before that without lifting,but if you change too early without lifting you get the engine squeal/scream and endanger you blowing the motor.
So on any track are you trying to go to full max range in all gears on any part of the track.Is that impossible and not feasible or is it better to drop of revs at times(depend on track/straight/corner) to adjust gear change so you are finding the correct gear and traction for the situation you are in?

TP:

#19 Pete Gaimari

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Posted Aug 31 2015 - 11:49 AM

I short shift maybe 4-5 times on all the 11 original tracks. That's 4-5 times for all the tracks. It's usually always to get the power down quicker. As an example. Going into the 2nd Lesmo at Monza. Just as I hit the apex I shift from 2nd to 3rd so I can come off the turn at full throttle. if you do it right it will show in faster lap times. At Monza again i'll short shift up to 3rd half way through Parabolica to get the power down.

When you hold full throttle for your shifts that's speed shifting. Even though you're doing it before redline. I could never do that. It's unrealistic, and couldn't be done in the real car. It sounds horrible too. Lift, use the clutch, and shift. Much better, and how it was done in 67. Unless you had a huge supply of transmissions, and didn't mind breaking all the time. :)

#20 John Woods

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Posted Aug 31 2015 - 02:10 PM

Everything that follows is a question and a guess:
:)

A car does not have to be at full throttle to be enjoying maximum acceleration on/within the power band?
It is possible to short shift and speed shift, (not letting off), if engine is not taken to max RPM?
(Mid/high RPM speedshifts).

Not sure, (forget, been too long), isn't the default shift time .22sec?
So five extra (theoretically unnecessary) shifts at the Ring = 1+ seconds of lap time, no matter what technique?

Speedshifting isn't faster because of shift technique being quicker, (because same time is added no matter how fast the shift), but rather because of less loss of momentum (perhaps) and more time in the higher gear = more top end on down the road?

Speedshifting even without realistic mode will break a car if RPM drop is too much.
Anything over 800rpm is dangerous, but not always a disaster.
A speedshift with a 1400rpm drop will probably twist something up instantly.

An 800rpm drop means wasting a lot of time in the lower gears.
Lower gears need to take big leaps forward.
They need to be as tall/long as possible.

Speedshifting only slows things down in lower gears, as all that is happening is lots of high RPM shifting going nowhere fast. In lower gears, the idea is to make the most use of the full range of each gear and, more importantly, get to the next higher gear as quickly as possible. In other words, upshift into the bottom of the next gear's power range.

A transmission geared for 1000rpm drops can be short-shifted up to the bottom of the next gear's power band without reaching max RPM first and average lap time will improve because the car will reach a higher top speed before braking due to being in a higher gear a longer time. More distance will be covered at the end than any time lost at the start.

Just my theory, based on the "laws of marginal returns," the fastest average lap is the result of accelerating in the highest possible gear from the bottom to the top of its 90 percent max power range more of the time than not, and has not a lot to do with speedshifting.

Speedshifting works, if at all, when shifting in higher gears, (3rd/4th or 4th/5th with Lotus). If geared properly, (not too little RPM drop/not too much), you will feel the car make a little jump forward that does not happen when not speedshifting.

My theory is this force is being transferred from the lateral clutch, because it seems the effect is more pronounced when the shift occurs during a flatout turn, like when going from 4th to 5th on the outside at Ascari.

Wuhooo!

There's an unbelievably long thread around here about shifting.
:D

Edited by John Woods, Aug 31 2015 - 02:23 PM.





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