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V.R. Metaphysical Aesthetics


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#61 John Woods

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Posted Mar 05 2017 - 02:28 PM

Possibly, this short 10sec replay thru T7 at Road America illustrates demonstration of straight line sliding thru a turn?
Note the only purpose of very slight drift is to rapidly change line to project a vector inside a point further ahead, such as the second large tree on the left coming down to T8.

Only have imagination and usually dubious intuition.
Really like to know if it doesn't show that and if not then what is happening?



This clip is best viewed from high up directly above car.

:)

Latest Edit: added a composite of screenshots from clip that show tire marks indicating line of the drift.
(clik ctrl+ a few times for better viewing).

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Edited by John Woods, Mar 11 2017 - 01:56 PM.


#62 John Woods

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Posted Aug 28 2017 - 02:48 PM

Sort of just a housekeeping update...too late to edit above post.

Plus this is new...


Infinity is a variable of a generic 4D straight line net within which the racing line between nodal points is established by consequence of circumstance at any moment. So while the basic points are conveniently diagrammed with the typical 2D diagram of a 90deg turn, for any and all turns the net is stretched by parameter definition, (to reveal maybe a Broc curve or P-curve?), and set with certainty the minimum line between the driver and a specific point on the far side of any turn.

It is a net that is mentally projected across the driver's view ahead like an overlay in motion.

The lines are not measured because only the locations of nodal points are significant.
Cars ahead are nodal points and relationships between them are absolute regardless of speed or distance.

When a racing car is "in slip" and on the edge of maximum lateral load the reality of its line more closely reflects the purity of the ideal, such as a certain most efficient trajectory, whether named or not...as it seems in skiing, sailing, flying, surfing, skateboarding...simracing.

:D

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Edited by John Woods, Sep 21 2017 - 07:53 AM.


#63 John Woods

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Posted Nov 07 2017 - 10:15 AM

The housekeeping update referred to in the above post is for the pic in the prior post.
:)

And here is sort of done with it something new...just trying to figure it out.



:D

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#64 Brocky05

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Posted Nov 07 2017 - 04:54 PM

mummy my brain hurts hehe

#65 Warren Hall Jr.

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Posted Nov 08 2017 - 05:18 PM

I think John's saying the fastest way through a turn is the longest way.

#66 John Woods

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Posted Nov 11 2017 - 12:41 PM

I know what I'm saying?
It is still as its always been questions and guesses.

Do agree the longest line, (widest arc that touches inside edge of track), is in theory at constant speed the fastest line thru a flat 90deg turn. Do know from reading Paul Frere the racing line is the line of least resistance.

From very very little understanding of the physics of the lines made by things like Earthly projectiles on piloted or not trajectories, given magnitudes that exceed 1:1 steering capability, while near maximum lateral load, well into slip, (leading edge tire distortion), with the wheel held steady, that weight balanced asymmetrically will control the direction of a car, and by anticipation and throttle, a driver may determine it's line exactly.

The apex of the racing line is the point along the car's line of travel when/where the sprung weight quits moving out and before it begins its return to center.

Ideally weight should shift out only once and return to center only once per turn.
It should be the minimum off center shift of weight.

The car goes where it has to go.


Thanks for your comments btw.
:D

Edited by John Woods, Nov 12 2017 - 06:57 AM.


#67 John Woods

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Posted Jan 16 2018 - 12:36 PM

This isn't questions and guesses...

Below are pics of two pages from Jim Clark at the wheel, by Jim Clark, Pocketbook edition 1966.
Altogether, this is sort of a melancholy read btw and a struggle to get thru.
Sorry it is difficult to hold and focus camera while trying to not hurt the book.

Its where he describes how he takes a corner.

Earlier he comments that while there might be a technically correct line that each driver takes their own line and that his and Graham Hill's approach, apex, and exit were very different.

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Edited by John Woods, Jan 16 2018 - 07:42 PM.


#68 John Woods

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Posted Feb 16 2018 - 08:17 AM

Just finished reading Graham, by Graham Hill with Neil Ewart,  Arrow Books, c. 1977.

Not as sad and foreboding as Jim Clark At the Wheel. Graham seems a happy camper pretty much with only a few mentions of the mortal risk so predominant in racing back then.

Like the Clark book, not much about in-car racing technique however. Here is the only bit of it:

"If you're chasing the leaders without making much impression, you just go flat out the whole time. You can achieve your top speed along the straights, of course, but when it comes to the corners you try to gain valuable seconds or fractions of seconds by making straights out of them. If we had to go round corners on fixed railway lines which followed the curves we'd lose a lot of time. We don't have to, thank goodness, so we're able to use all the road by starting the corner wide and then drifting the car through under accelerating power so that we clip the apex of the corner and continue the drift to the outside of the corner, nicely placed to enter the next straight. By using these tactics we've straightened out the corner and got through quicker. The technique of drifting calls for a very delicate balancing operation on the part of the driver in the use of throttle to control the power through the rear wheels, and the steering wheel to control the front wheels to maintain the car in the required angle and direction, and get through the corner in the minimum of time."

He spent almost as many words detailing his pre-race routine and preference for a nice bath the evening before a race.

1st pic; Graham in an F3, (no date or place).
2nd pic: (left to right), Dan Gurney, Jack Brabham, Bruce McLaren, Richie Ginther, Denny Hulme, Jochen Rindt, (no date or place). Pretty sure the guy on the far right is Graham Hill, but the book doesn't say.


:D

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Edited by John Woods, Feb 16 2018 - 09:12 AM.


#69 Pete Gaimari

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Posted Feb 18 2018 - 09:20 AM

Since the Air Force trains fighter pilots on a simulator. Formula One teams train the drivers on simulators. Nascar does the same thing. I believe all auto pro racing teams train on simulators. I believe there has to be a certain amount of reality in driving simulators. To some degree, it teaches you all the skills you need to drive/fly the car/plane. It can certainly each you a race track and what line to take. It can teach you where to shift, where to brake and accelerate on the track. It builds muscle memory for driving the real car.

The better the simulator. The closer you drive in a realistic manner. The closer to reality.

#70 John Woods

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Posted Mar 06 2018 - 09:15 AM

View PostPete Gaimari, on Feb 18 2018 - 09:20 AM, said:

I believe there has to be a certain amount of reality in driving simulators.

The better the simulator. The closer you drive in a realistic manner. The closer to reality.


Yes absolutely no doubt.
Thanks Pete for making these points.
This is entirely what sustains my interest in Grand Prix Legends.
The racing history and amazing art is icing on the cake.


The pics are from Piero Taruffi's The Technique of Motor Racing.
When you read all the other books, they all refer to this one.

It is often noted the fastest way thru a flat 90deg turn is on the line that coincides with the largest arc that begins on the outside edge of the track, touches the inside edge at the geometric apex, and exits touching the outside edge again.

Taruffi demonstrates this approach results in slower lap times because time gained in the corners will be lost on the straights.
Faster lap times are the result of achieving maximum speed on straights.
To do this, you have to "cheat the corner," or as Graham Hill suggests, turn them into straights.

Notice point Z? Its past the geometric apex.

Anyway...here's the drawing where its all pretty much sewed up.
(From this point on, the discussion is about banked turns and other special cases).

Taruffi does not explain, when mentioning the importance of going off throttle, that going completely off throttle puts the diff into coast which "swings the rear out" and that, (as I understand), it is primarily diff and shock settings that effect this critical motion, (while springs and bars set the limits).
Notice he does emphasize simultaneous symmetrical countersteer to maintain slip angle and intended driving line.



:D

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Edited by John Woods, Mar 07 2018 - 12:08 PM.


#71 John Woods

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Posted Mar 07 2018 - 12:19 PM

Very few words on driving technique, from Fangio A Perilli Album by Stirling Moss, c1991.

Also a bit of thrill as he describes how, at the Ring in 1957, during his chase to retake the lead, he took the "swerves" under the bridge at the end of the long straight.




:D

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Edited by John Woods, Mar 08 2018 - 02:28 PM.


#72 Pete Gaimari

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Posted Mar 17 2018 - 09:28 AM

Bravery beyond imagination.

#73 JonnyA

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Posted Mar 17 2018 - 09:34 AM

John, I just bought the Taruffi book because the bit you posted looked good. I'm really enjoying it, so many thanks!

#74 John Woods

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Posted Mar 18 2018 - 09:35 AM

JonnyA, you're welcome.
Thanks for posting.

Its an amazing book that seems to leave out no detail.
Think I've been thru it at least 3 maybe 4 or 5 times now?

Its a happy moment, hope you will agree, when reading part of it and thinking, yes, Grand Prix Legends already taught me that. Nice to have at least some little bit of what I think I know confirmed by the expert authority.

Taruffi tho takes it all a lot farther than I imagined.


Pete, sure you agree we are lucky to have Shift-R after trying to take the swerve under the bridge and over the dip flat out. I'm good for that working maybe one out of three tries.
Figure Fangio was doing around 180mph at that point?
Also it was late in the race and some fatigue along with oil and dirt on goggles likely made driving a lot more difficult.

So yes, truly incredible.



:D

Edited by John Woods, Mar 18 2018 - 09:59 AM.


#75 JonnyA

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Posted Mar 18 2018 - 10:25 AM

John, it's surprising how well what I learn in GPL is confirmed by Taruffi.

Still don't like his line into Hugenholtz though!




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