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V.R. Metaphysical Aesthetics


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#31 John Woods

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Posted Mar 14 2010 - 02:36 PM

Grego,

Definitely will check it out..."What the (blank) do we know?" is one of my favorite sayings, typically, when someone is trying to explain to me how ancient Egyptians built the pyramids.
Do you have a link?
See ya.

Edited by John Woods, Mar 14 2010 - 04:01 PM.


#32 John Woods

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Posted Mar 20 2010 - 11:21 AM

There is an interest in improving all aspects of GPL simulator experience. This interest at times appears in the context of portraying an experience of real circumstance, that is, as if the user is doing something else. Given that interest, one aspect is portraying a view that is "most possible real."
In reality I think we will all agree trees and leaves move and seem to "flicker" when the wind is just right. Also, there is lots of background light coming through as branches and leaves randomly shift against the inconsistent wind.
So my guess, (very big guess), is each independent tree.srb would need to be an animated multi-mip structure reacting in sequential harmony to adjacent trees before anything but static simblance of reality can be acheived. The same is true for animals, banners, clouds, and people. There is distraction everywhere, all the time.  
In the meantime, GPL drivers are blasting past a portrayal of "reality" that is very distinctly not dynamically real except, maybe only a little more symbolically, when using 36fps and getting 34fps or a display rate interference pattern, the tops of the trees may flicker, at least more than with 60hz/60fps sync. So maybe something that has been annoying out of the corner of our eyes was actually something closer to actual reality, in which we would, if really barreling down a straight, totally ignore the leaves. And also, maybe there are opportunities to take what is considered dissonant distortion, or other irregularities, and further enhance the uniquely GPL experience. Moire patterns generated by Mandelbrot sets = pinetree1.srb?

Edited by John Woods, Mar 24 2010 - 01:09 PM.


#33 atumno

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Posted Mar 28 2010 - 04:11 PM

hello jason,

sorry i jump into this thread two weeks late, i just found it. and although i read the whole thread and i realize the idea is to give an idea how to possibly improve laptimes, i hope it is ok that i mostly refer to the mataphysical parts of the first post.



some of what you said resembled some of my own thoughts, but i had a different interpretation foil.

as grego already has pointed out your use of plato is inaccurate. but your experience surely is an interesting impression. while grego might call this old-fashioned too it seemed closer to mcluhan's theory of media to me.

your experience resembles somewhat to waking up from a kind of 'hypnosis'. You say you suddenly realised that you drive a computer.

according to mcluhan, media, esp. those that emphasize one sense above others, have a tendency to hypnotize the user.

any media has an effect. stone writings, letters, telephone, tv, computers, they all change the world of those who use them, the society that uses them. it's the effect of the media itself, it's never the program (content) of a media. the changes that the telephone brought into a society are not caused by it being used to call an emergency, order a pizza, cancel a relationship or whatever. It makes conversation faster and timelines tighter. But it also has a tendency to focus your concentration to the hearing sense while distracting attention from the other senses. esp if the connection is bad you have to concentrate harder to understand what is said, and you block other impressions. you focus more and more on the media, and usually this goes mostly unnoticed. this might be a rough example of what mcluhan calls hypnosis.

whatever it is that computers and their interconnection do to our society, it makes no difference wether you use it to play gta, write emails, do cad or whatever.

you suddenly noticed that, no matter how realistic and immersive the simulation becomes, its still only a computer running a program. it's even not correct that we drive a computer. we manipulate data. and we are banned by it. the actual occupation is just the 'theme', tastes are different, for us it's racing that draws us to the machine. in reality we react to flickerings on a monitor. the fact that it's not passive consumption but 'interaction' only makes it more immersive, hypnotizing.


i have no idea wether this can make any difference to laptimes, but that's what jason's thoughts stirred in me. mcluhan might be outdated, i still think it's an interesting perspective.

#34 John Woods

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Posted Mar 29 2010 - 09:25 AM

Hi nixda, welcome to the real world, :').

Thanks for your interesting and helpful comments,

I have to review my Plato apparently, after many years maybe my idea of what "guys in a cave" was about is as you say "not accurate," although, so far I am not aware of anyone making the point of how it is not accurate, only the claim.  And it seems now we need a review of McLuhan as well.

Indeed, breaking out of hypnosis seems just as reasonable a way to put it as having an instant karmic revelation.

The point of improving lap times, and enhancing driving experience, follows from an interest in eliminating errors in assumptions about what is really happening, that effects perception and conception. So the first insight was recognition of "driving a computer" which I think is exactly the same as "manipulating data," which in both cases requires not participating in a self-deluding hypnotic fantasy about driving a Lotus, Ferrari, or Brabham.
One important point maybe misunderstood, that follows from the idea of driving a computer, is of first cause, which I think is critical here. The user creates the display by making "driver inputs." Reacting to the display implies it is the first cause, when actually the user is the cause of all display effects. I think this is very, very significant. It is what I mean by "driving the computer" rather than reacting to it, and the way to drive it is to manipulate the data so the display changes as the user intends.

No doubt, edits to follow...

Edited by John Woods, Mar 29 2010 - 01:05 PM.


#35 atumno

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Posted Mar 29 2010 - 01:52 PM

ok, i'll try to explain why i think the cave example does not apply. (attention: my rendition of the cave example is abbreviated to keep the post (relatively) short. and i'm not a native english speaker and have never read an english plato translation, so mistakes and misunderstandings are very likely)
from what i understood (which is few and incomplete) plato's cave is an illustration of what he calls ideas. it's a path of ascending insights into our incomplete conceptions of what is 'real'. the men bound in the cave believe the shadows to be real beings because they don't know anything else. they don't know about the fire burning behind them which casts the shadows on the wall, shadows of beings that the bound men even cannot imagine, their world does not expand beyond shadows on a wall. that is the situation of most men. he has to be untied from his bounds and to leave his acustomed place to see the fire, the beings and the shadows to understand his prior misconception. he even might leave the cave and learn that even the cave with the fire and the beings is only a very limited and inacurate conception of what the real (outside) world is like. this way will be painfull (the sunlight will hurt his eyes which are acustomed to a dark cave), but after this he surely will never return to his original situation, bound before a wall showing faint shadows.

even the most serious wow addict does not believe the virtual world to be reality, he knows what his real outside world looks like. but he very probably will not know that this 'real' outside world is just shadows on a wall, according to plato's cave image.




for the prime mover thought,

i'd say you don't 'create the display'. i know what you mean, but since you started this as a metaphysical topic i guess it is allowed to point out that in strict methodology this is not correct. the display is defined by the program code, which was written by the programmer. before that a machine had to exist that could run this code (a physical visual display). and so on...
If I start up the machine, launch the sim and start to drive the virtual car i just act and react within the options defined by the program. i am the cause that the program is running, but philosophically this is hardly 'first cause'. however, first cause is subject to debate, and your conception might be valid from a certain viewpoint.

But remember, ideas that are called invalid in a certain reference system may prove fruitful as the reference system erodes. so don't be set off by these objections.

and the result of your idea seems to be pretty beneficial, i don't critizize anything of that, on the contrary i will give it a try (i hardly race these days, unforrtunately). i just talk about the philosophical implications that were aroused.
the fact that at least some of the aliens use rollbar view demonstrates that a distant non-immersive approach seems to work pretty well...

cheers,
atumno

Edited by nixda, Mar 29 2010 - 02:01 PM.


#36 John Woods

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Posted Mar 29 2010 - 02:47 PM

Thank you nixda, very good comments I think and really to the point(s).
Scanned through "The Mechanical Bride" out of Understanding Media this afternoon. Not enough time yet to get into details. (So, later).

Perhaps a better way to put it then is "change the display," rather than create it, although I guess even given the specifics of creation there is an element of it still, as while the artist may not have made the brush, the paint, or the canvas, no one argues about who created the work of art, or whether a driver "creates" a proper racing line even though someone else built the car and track. But the important issue is whether a user reacts to the display or not. I say do not make the mistake of reacting to the display. Rather, make the display happen based on knowledge/awareness of what is possible.

#37 atumno

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Posted Mar 29 2010 - 04:29 PM

i'd recommend to read at least the first chapter, and probably the fourth (2 & 3 are a little strange but worth a try), before getting to the single media analysis (like the mechanical bride) of the second part.


View PostJohn Woods, on Mar 29 2010 - 02:47 PM, said:

Perhaps a better way to put it then is "change the display," rather than create it, although I guess even given the specifics of creation there is an element of it still, as while the artist may not have made the brush, the paint, or the canvas, no one argues about who created the work of art, or whether a driver "creates" a proper racing line even though someone else built the car and track. But the important issue is whether a user reacts to the display or not. I say do not make the mistake of reacting to the display. Rather, make the display happen based on knowledge/awareness of what is possible.

sure you are right there. you should be ahead of the car, make it do what you want it to, not just react to it's stubborness. still, you have to react to the environment (and you do it with the car).
and i agree completely that creation is possible using tools that were not made by oneself, you create a racing line as you said, you even could do writing or painting with skidmarks, there is no doubt about that. there is nothing wrong with saying that you are the cause of what the (virtual) car does. the idea of 'first cause' is a philosophical mindgame looking for a cause that is no more caused by anything else. some see god as such a final cause, others won't.


still, i think your basic idea sounds worth trying. i usually tend to let myself get drawn into the illusion to some extent. I will try if i can deliberately keep myself out of it and if that offers some advantage for me. perhaps i can cure one problem with this: i tend to cramp my hands way too tigth on the wheel and tend to get a pain after some time. i reduced ff when i noticed it, but maybe your approach can be helpful too. maybe the statement 'stay ahead of the car' could be modified to 'stay ahead of the machine'...

Edited by nixda, Mar 29 2010 - 05:03 PM.


#38 atumno

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Posted Mar 29 2010 - 05:02 PM

(unintentional post, sorry)

Edited by nixda, Mar 29 2010 - 05:03 PM.


#39 John Woods

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Posted Mar 30 2010 - 07:57 PM

An important distinction between more macroscopic versions of definition and classification is the interface of an infinite universe and a finite universe. For instance, a billiards table is a finite universe and with respect to it a player is the prime mover, in all respects the first cause and when at the table in total omnipresent control of that universe. That's a poolshooters job, and the better they are at it the more they will demonstrate their dominion over their universe.

At any given point on a GPL racing line, What is the immediate goal?

It is to maintain the line.

So, what is the GPL racing line?

A. It is a projection of mathematically certain fantasy.

B. It is not the same as a real track racing line, whether road course, closed circuit, or oval, because it is more theoretical or "perfect." It is as chess is to violence.

1. Both the car models and the track models are imperfect representations of reality, but are unique systems entirely perfect in themselves and they stand alone.

2. In reality, there are environmental factors of little significance to the GPL racing line that are not represented in simulation.

C. The consequence of a specific sequential set of user inputs displayed at a future time.

D. All of the above.

Edited by John Woods, Apr 09 2010 - 07:21 AM.


#40 John Woods

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Posted Apr 26 2010 - 07:47 AM

Here's some images to illustrate points made in this thread:

Attached Files


Edited by John Woods, May 03 2010 - 09:09 PM.


#41 John Woods

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Posted May 21 2010 - 01:00 PM

Found this today on Wikipedia under heading "3D projection."

DiagramPosted Image

To determine which screen x coordinate corresponds to a point at Ax,Az multiply the point coordinates by:

Posted Imagethe same works for the screen y coordinate:

Posted Image(where Ax and Ay are coordinates occupied by the object before the perspective transform)

* * *

This seems to confirm the necessity of configuring and tuning each user's console to their special perception. (This capacity is almost a unique ability of Grand Prix Legends by virtue of independent utilities). But this does not resolve issues about dynamic events and when they occur versus how they are presented by the display and FF, versus when the user experiences them.

Edited by John Woods, May 21 2010 - 01:04 PM.


#42 John Woods

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Posted Jan 30 2011 - 10:04 AM

Sorry about waking up this thread and running it on but as it is an ongoing quest, occasionally some insight or coincidence of another thread discussion reminds me many of us are still searching for some magic aha moments, and Grand Prix Legends continues to deliver.

Something prompted by a recent aha moment is very important and I think rarely mentioned, which is directing the driving line by using front suspension bounce.

Lately I've been considering this with some interest and today thought maybe I'd go back and look at the Ring screenshot, ("Apex_Aremberg"), in the above post #40 to freshen my memory about zero divided by infinity, to find out what was it I was thinking back then, and noted it had been downloaded like 40+ times.

Gee, not much downloading after 1,500 thread views. (Maybe Burnsy865 is right).

Anyway, turns out I already had an idea about the critical need to drive a car using spring bounce to place it on a certain and specific point at the exit of a turn and included a note about it as an aside.

Here's the technique, in case any of the 40 or so who are interested care to try it. (I know its all fantasy/guess, but its what I think I'm doing).

(As in Apex_Aremberg, assume you = zero on the y-axis):

Coming up to a turn, pick a point where you want to be at exit…this is not a special point until you think it is, it can be anywhere on the track depending on circumstance, but typically except in pursuit it is near the centerline of the track, In the screenshot, this point is called "infinity."

Once determined, quickly flick the wheel in the opposite direction. If intending to turn right, flick the wheel left to a point symmetrically opposite the exit point, (or close enough, to get the springs bouncing away from the exit).

Then, as the springs bounce back and are then directing the bounce toward the exit point, flick the wheel quickly to the exit point, typically inside the apex of the driving line, and at the same time tap the brake quick but firm, once. (ONCE!).

The springs will then compress toward the exit point with substantial emphasis and if not interrupted will bounce in that direction until they bounce back, away from the point where you want to be. That is not what you want happening at all, right?

So to keep it happening, trail brake into the turn, holding the springs on point, then slowly floor it and hold the wheel on the exit point! Don't turn the wheel away as long as it seems the springs are still bouncing to that point.

Very amazing. It goes right where you point it, (the red line in the screenshot). Better get it right, because it will not go anywhere else without a lot of panic-stricken flailing about, if you are lucky. But throw the front springs there, and the car will go there. You can pick a point way on down the track as well, which works really well at tracks like Silverstone67.

The goal is once per turn or once per change in track direction. If it doesn't go there, steer the car with the brake and accelerating throttle, to re-center the car, and repeat the entire sequence. This causes a second apex, but you get thru the turn, (hopefully). If that doesn't happen, reconsider your line and/or fix your setup.
Start with steering ratio, as that very much effects how the flicking wheel sets up the entire turn, as well as how the car holds the driving line. (If I import a setup, the first thing I do is tweak the steering to sync the setup to my race console as close as possible, and not change anything else). After that, work on the diff, etc...

So, cu/aloha/ciao/adioci/bye

Attached Files


Edited by John Woods, Feb 06 2011 - 06:16 PM.


#43 wiliamsmith4444

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Posted Jul 15 2011 - 03:30 PM

I react to, say, a sudden loss of grip at speed and I'm using "body english" as I fight to regain control and continue on without losing too much time, I'm not at all pretending, as you suggest I am

#44 John Woods

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Posted Jul 24 2011 - 08:27 PM

View Postwiliamsmith4444, on Jul 15 2011 - 03:30 PM, said:

I react to, say, a sudden loss of grip at speed and I'm using "body english" as I fight to regain control and continue on without losing too much time, I'm not at all pretending, as you suggest I am
Hi williamsmith4444, Howdy!
Welcome to The Forum!
Isn't Grand Prix Legends the greatest!
Sorry for not responding sooner. I just checked this thread again after several weeks of not thinking about it.

One reason the immersion in fantasy seems so real is to play the game we must react as if it is real, and no doubt to be fully into it does not require conscious suspension of disbelief or the pretense we do believe it is real...it is an intersection of reality and fantasy and the nodal point is our awareness of being, which is pretty hard to separate from reality. Reacting to Grand Prix Legends as if it is real is part of the fantasy. Our reaction is what makes fantasies seem real. I read once there are more than 700 unique sensory inputs programmed into Grand Prix Legends. No wonder it seems so real, we are overloaded with fantasy inputs, and we all jump around and fall off our racing seats when things get hairy.

It is a very interesting thing that we easily place ourselves into it so completely we enjoy without pretense how amazing it is. Even knowing it is not real makes no difference when immersed in it...that is the curious thing; that humans can do that, and how they do it. Of course it is half-real half-fantasy.

But, to make it real, and not a fantasy, means to me recognizing, or acknowledging, it is as valid and more real to be racing a computer as it is to be pretending to be racing along with Hill and Clark. Our brains don't seem to know the difference even if we make a deliberate effort to suspend awareness of the present by placing ourselves somewhere else, (like Monza in 1967 or Watkins Glen in 1948). And surely, racing online is very real and not a pretense at all. But even online, it is still a computer, and it is still projecting mathematical certainty into a fantasy.

The underlying "theory" detailed at the beginning of this thread is the idea that racing the computer provides a basis for using its capacity to project a certain line, (a racing line), with mathematical precision that far exceeds the level of perfection typical of IRL experience...so we can command the computer to present things to us on the display that coincides with what is theoretically possible in real life. If we try the same approach in real life...watch out! Real life will quickly prove to us it's not all about mathematics. Ultimately Grand Prix Legends runs on binary code and it is all about mathematics. So why not use that to our advantage as the opportunity to do so is there? Also, the necessity of tuning the display and configuring the hardware and software properly kind of makes the point as well.

Of course, anyone can imagine anything they want about what they think they are doing. What is most real to me is the incredible astounding exceptional World Class Fine Art that is created by car and track artist/editors and the efforts of so many others that make Grand Prix Legends the best racing sim ever. Think the ceiling of the Cistine Chapel is big? Try Targa or the Isle of Man in 1:1 scale! It is no fantasy how fantastic it all is, and when driving around and through it, (the only way I can think of to describe it), that experience is truly real.

Edited by John Woods, Jul 24 2011 - 10:02 PM.


#45 TurboMan

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Posted Nov 12 2013 - 11:54 AM

Your reasonings are very interesting John :hat-tip: . Very curious explanations, now i won't feel the same when playing not only GPL but all kind of racing videogames :lol:




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