Jump to content


- - - - -

To Brake With Left Or Right Foot?


  • Please log in to reply
46 replies to this topic

#21 Pete Gaimari

Pete Gaimari

    Jim Clark

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,536 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Colorado
  • Interests:Racing and Muzzleloader Hunting
  • Sim interest:GPL

Posted Jul 17 2014 - 12:26 PM

The good part about GPL is you can make it what you want. It doesn't matter what anybody else is doing. As long as you're happy doing it your way, it can't be wrong. I'm sure we all drive GPL to have fun. Don't do anything in GPL to satisfy someone else. You only have to satisfy yourself.

#22 jgf

jgf

    Denny Hulme

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 785 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Columbus, OH
  • Sim interest:GPL and P&G

Posted Jul 17 2014 - 12:57 PM

Downshifting a non-synchro gearbox without using the clutch can be done by an experienced driver, though in a racing environment it isn't efficient.  The procedure is to go to neutral, rev the engine slightly, and move the shift slightly towards the lower gear, just enough to bring the gears into contact;  you will feel the gears mesh at one point, complete the shift then.

I learned to drive in a '51 Studebaker pickup, "three-on-the-tree", no synchro;  upshifting without the clutch wasn't too difficult, but I never mastered downshifting.  Men of my father's generation were quite adept at this and, though shifting a street vehicle is different from shifting a race car, they seemed to spend little more time on the downshift than the upshift.  (We'll not mention how often the groans, snarls, and grinds of tortured gearboxes drifted across our county as my friends and I learned these techniques.)

#23 one2fwee

one2fwee

    Denny Hulme

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 315 posts
  • Sim interest:GPL and P&G

Posted Jul 17 2014 - 01:20 PM

In GPL, LFB while keeping on the throttle seems to shorten braking distances, which always irked me and isn't something i can recommend - but people basically exploit this and basically never use the coast side of the diff. This is why if you drive normally with a lot of setups that have a very "open" coast side of the diff, you tend to lock the rear wheels and die while trying to slow down. The brake bias is generally further to the rear than normal setups, but because they throttle while braking and also keep on the very locking power side of the diff, both of these things help counteract the rear wheels from locking.

In theory, this should balance out and not provide any extra braking force but in GPL it seems like it gains you a bit, which is a large part of the reason a lot of aliens LFB. It also makes balancing the car and keeping it stable into turns a lot easier.

#24 Pete Gaimari

Pete Gaimari

    Jim Clark

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,536 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Colorado
  • Interests:Racing and Muzzleloader Hunting
  • Sim interest:GPL

Posted Jul 17 2014 - 01:34 PM

View Postjgf, on Jul 17 2014 - 12:57 PM, said:

Downshifting a non-synchro gearbox without using the clutch can be done by an experienced driver, though in a racing environment it isn't efficient.  The procedure is to go to neutral, rev the engine slightly, and move the shift slightly towards the lower gear, just enough to bring the gears into contact;  you will feel the gears mesh at one point, complete the shift then.

I learned to drive in a '51 Studebaker pickup, "three-on-the-tree", no synchro;  upshifting without the clutch wasn't too difficult, but I never mastered downshifting.  Men of my father's generation were quite adept at this and, though shifting a street vehicle is different from shifting a race car, they seemed to spend little more time on the downshift than the upshift.  (We'll not mention how often the groans, snarls, and grinds of tortured gearboxes drifted across our county as my friends and I learned these techniques.)

I'm a retired truck driver. I did it for 30 years, and have a million miles doing it. The only time I used the clutch was at a stop.

#25 Fat Rich

Fat Rich

    Lazy Blipper

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 772 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Fallen out of the Karussell again
  • Interests:GPL has got me by the throat and won't let go.
  • Sim interest:GPL

Posted Jul 17 2014 - 05:06 PM

View Postone2fwee, on Jul 17 2014 - 01:20 PM, said:

In GPL, LFB while keeping on the throttle seems to shorten braking distances, which always irked me and isn't something i can recommend - but people basically exploit this and basically never use the coast side of the diff. This is why if you drive normally with a lot of setups that have a very "open" coast side of the diff, you tend to lock the rear wheels and die while trying to slow down. The brake bias is generally further to the rear than normal setups, but because they throttle while braking and also keep on the very locking power side of the diff, both of these things help counteract the rear wheels from locking.

In theory, this should balance out and not provide any extra braking force but in GPL it seems like it gains you a bit, which is a large part of the reason a lot of aliens LFB. It also makes balancing the car and keeping it stable into turns a lot easier.

AHA! Thanks for this, it's a bit of a Eureka moment for me.

Up to now on my GPL comeback (7 whole months after a 15 year break) I've been developing my own setups but I've hit a wall on a few circuits where no amount of tweaking or adjusting my lines makes me any faster.

Last couple of days I've downloaded a few "Alien" fast setups but I'm still setting similar human times while also really struggling with the braking zones. My better laps seem to be when I'm concentrating so hard on not losing the car under braking that I mess up my heel / toe downshifts and end up with some brake and gas at the same time, the car is much more stable.

I've seen a couple of videos of iRacing where someone has lost the car, mashed the brake and gas at the same time and the car has magically sorted itself. Like this one at about 4m50s in, watch the steering / pedals meter in the lower left corner:



Maybe GPL reacts the same way, seems a bit "gamey" to me :really:.

Still, it's given me something to think about when developing setups.  :D

Edited by Fat Rich, Jul 17 2014 - 05:07 PM.


#26 T18

T18

    Jo Bonnier

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 20 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:St. Louis Mo
  • Sim interest:Nascar

Posted Jul 17 2014 - 05:23 PM

yes GPL will 'catch' like that if you go opp lock and full brakes, so will Forza 4, DTR2, N4, and NR2003

#27 qwertyce

qwertyce

    Jimmy Clark

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 44 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sicily
  • Interests:gpl
  • Sim interest:GPL

Posted Jul 17 2014 - 05:45 PM

about shifting without clutch, from four wheel drift:



Posted Image

#28 Pete Gaimari

Pete Gaimari

    Jim Clark

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,536 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Colorado
  • Interests:Racing and Muzzleloader Hunting
  • Sim interest:GPL

Posted Jul 17 2014 - 06:44 PM

You sure could LF brake the F2 cars. Here;s the Lotus 41, and it sure looks like the left side of the brake pedal has some wear. However, this car is raced in Historic races, so it doesn't mean the original drivers in the 60's did it. Then again it doesn't mean they didn't either.


Posted Image

Edited by Pete Gaimari, Jul 17 2014 - 06:45 PM.


#29 Bob Simpson

Bob Simpson

    The answer man

  • Moderator
  • 2,326 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ottawa
  • Sim interest:GPL

Posted Jul 17 2014 - 08:31 PM

The Lotus 41 had a tubular frame and not monocoque?  Looking further, I guess so.  I ways thought that from the Lotus 25 on all of them were monocoque.

Edited by Bob Simpson, Jul 17 2014 - 08:36 PM.


#30 Pete Gaimari

Pete Gaimari

    Jim Clark

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,536 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Colorado
  • Interests:Racing and Muzzleloader Hunting
  • Sim interest:GPL

Posted Jul 17 2014 - 09:31 PM

Probably just the F1. Although the 48 might be monocoque? I'll have a look to see.

#31 Pete Gaimari

Pete Gaimari

    Jim Clark

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,536 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Colorado
  • Interests:Racing and Muzzleloader Hunting
  • Sim interest:GPL

Posted Jul 17 2014 - 09:38 PM

Yes, the 48 was monocoque.

#32 David Wright Lo67

David Wright Lo67

    Denny Hulme

  • GTLW Crew
  • 443 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:GPL, GTL and P&G
  • Sim interest:GPL and P&G

Posted Jul 18 2014 - 10:45 AM

The 32 and 35 were monocoque, but monocoque construction did have drawbacks for what were primarily customer cars.  They were more expensive to buy and more difficult to fix in the event of a crash.  Throw in Brabhams success during this period with their tube frame F2/3 cars and Lotus switched back to tube frame construction for the 41.

#33 Pete Gaimari

Pete Gaimari

    Jim Clark

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,536 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Colorado
  • Interests:Racing and Muzzleloader Hunting
  • Sim interest:GPL

Posted Jul 18 2014 - 12:50 PM

If I was an owner of a F2 car. I'd prefer a tube frame.

#34 John Woods

John Woods

    Be Somebody

  • Supporter
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,470 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Too Much Fun
  • Sim interest:GPL

Posted Jul 19 2014 - 12:23 PM

View PostFat Rich, on Jul 17 2014 - 05:06 PM, said:

I've seen a couple of videos of iRacing where someone has lost the car, mashed the brake and gas at the same time and the car has magically sorted itself.

Isn't this because effect is to very quickly pull sprung weight back toward centered...irrespective of the situation otherwise? Then release the brakes and everything is on a happy new trajectory?
Seems if you had enough time, were quick enough, and caught it all in time, the same would happen with any car? So maybe not so much just a sim thing?

A.J. Foyt commented in his autobiography that one of his secrets to getting down deep into a turn was balancing the car on entry with squeeze of LFB, btw.

#35 one2fwee

one2fwee

    Denny Hulme

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 315 posts
  • Sim interest:GPL and P&G

Posted Jul 19 2014 - 05:13 PM

Well the LFB + right foot jams on the throttle save thing works in real life (in a rwd car) because you are basically forcing the front wheels to lock and meaning that the car will plough straight on heavily in understeer, which will correct the oversteer.

However, in real life, this would wreck your tyres and no doubt not be the best for your brakes either!!

That's the problem with sims, they don't model wear very effectively / punishingly.



With GPL (and possibly other sims), it also appears that if you keep a little bit of throttle on, then move the brake bias towards the rear and LFB, that braking distances are actually reduced from what is possible otherwise.
Obviously this shouldn't be the case but there must be some flaw somewhere in GPL's code that does this.


I guess to really be sure, some kind of benchmarking would be necessary using GPL replay analyser or some such.

#36 Pete Gaimari

Pete Gaimari

    Jim Clark

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,536 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Colorado
  • Interests:Racing and Muzzleloader Hunting
  • Sim interest:GPL

Posted Jul 19 2014 - 07:57 PM

A rear BB gets those fat rear tires more involved in the braking.

#37 John Woods

John Woods

    Be Somebody

  • Supporter
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,470 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Too Much Fun
  • Sim interest:GPL

Posted Jul 19 2014 - 08:04 PM

And maybe a little throttle keeps weight transfer toward front to a minimum, so load is more even on all tires?
Also tightens the suspension?
Plus engine braking when downshifting stops car quicker?

Edited by John Woods, Jul 19 2014 - 08:06 PM.


#38 Fat Rich

Fat Rich

    Lazy Blipper

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 772 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Fallen out of the Karussell again
  • Interests:GPL has got me by the throat and won't let go.
  • Sim interest:GPL

Posted Jul 20 2014 - 03:09 AM

GPL seems more sensitive to weight transfer than most sims so I guess that gas + brakes might trick the game into loading up the rear tires and giving more grip. In reality it would give less weight transfer but also less effective braking so longer braking distances, it would wear the brakes and transmission much more quickly too. Maybe Lee's forthcoming Brake Fade mod should be compulsory!

Also having the front tyres trying to stop the car and the rear tyres trying to push the car probably raises all the tyre temperatures and gives better grip in corner entry, us right foot brakers are probably entering the turn with slightly colder tyres after a long straight and not getting the temperatures up until mid corner.

#39 Pete Gaimari

Pete Gaimari

    Jim Clark

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,536 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Colorado
  • Interests:Racing and Muzzleloader Hunting
  • Sim interest:GPL

Posted Jul 20 2014 - 09:16 AM

Giving throttle during braking keeps the diff locked up to make it more stable. Normally, someone who uses a rearward BB will also use a loose diff on the coast side. This lets the car turn in good for all situations that aren't braking. So, the amount of turn in you get with a loose coast side on the diff is controlled with the throttle instead of the setup. A loose diff will take out the understeer everywhere on the track, but during braking the car will be unstable. Especially, when used with a rearward BB. To make it more controllable some throttle is applied to lock up the diff some. It also allows a BB that doesn't lock the front tires.

Does this all make sense to everybody. Using throttle with the braking has many benefits in GPL. It allows a setup that will turn good, and brake better. It's also very unrealistic to how they drove the real cars. It's everybody's choice whether they want to just go fast at all costs, or drive in a realistic manner. I have no bias toward either method. I've done both.

One thing I want to mention. Aliens aren't fast, because they use a certain driving style. They would be fast with either method. They're fast because of hard work, and natural talent. You won't become an alien by using their setups.

#40 Fat Rich

Fat Rich

    Lazy Blipper

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 772 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Fallen out of the Karussell again
  • Interests:GPL has got me by the throat and won't let go.
  • Sim interest:GPL

Posted Jul 20 2014 - 10:03 AM

View PostPete Gaimari, on Jul 20 2014 - 09:16 AM, said:

.....

One thing I want to mention. Aliens aren't fast, because they use a certain driving style. They would be fast with either method. They're fast because of hard work, and natural talent. You won't become an alien by using their setups.

Very true, I downloaded one of Gregor Huttu's setups and was surprised to find it was almost identical to my own setup. And yet he's consistently a few tenths* faster than me in every car, every circuit and every sim.

*a few tenths of a minute faster :yikesss:




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users

Sim Racing Links