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Recommendations For New Wheel


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#21 one2fwee

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Posted Oct 24 2017 - 01:45 PM

Robert and Brocky, can you both do this test and post the results?
http://srmz.net/inde...85

Set the rotation to 900 degrees, 100 Force, 0 Damping, 0 Spring, 0 centring spring (and disabled).
(The deadzone is in FFB, not steering angle).

It would be interesting to compare data.
Maybe run the test a few times to rule out weird results (but it is usually roughly the same each time unless your configuration changes).

Thanks!

#22 Robert Fleurke

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Posted Oct 25 2017 - 10:30 AM

OK. I renamed the .csv log file to .txt. I'm not sure how to make a graph on my current system.

PS: was confused, if the FFB has a deadzone what does that mean? Now especially with ffb3test I don't feel anything at the straight and for the rest it feels progressive. ffb2 felt smoother. Sorry for hijacking the thread Yannick :P

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Edited by Robert Fleurke, Oct 25 2017 - 12:46 PM.


#23 Brocky05

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Posted Oct 25 2017 - 04:17 PM

sorry my g25 is in storeage atm

btw way when i said the steering was getting sloppy n wheel nut had come loose i was talking about me i am the wheel nut :D

#24 fastmule

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Posted Oct 25 2017 - 05:43 PM

 Stefan Roess, on Oct 21 2017 - 03:27 PM, said:

 fastmule, on Oct 20 2017 - 05:40 PM, said:

How are you guys with the Thrustmasters getting any force feedback from the game? My G27 had a profile setup for GPL and worked decently. Now since I went to the T500 I cant get anything in the way of FF.

Have you tried these settings yet?
http://gplworld.org/...tion-guide.html

Created a Win 7 partition, fresh re-install following your instructions and all is well!!! Thanks man!

#25 GrandPrixYannick

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Posted Oct 28 2017 - 01:16 PM

Well, here it is.

Had a few laps with it. Love it so far.
Yet to consider the Thrustmaster pedals.

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#26 Pedro

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Posted Oct 28 2017 - 02:19 PM

 GrandPrixYannick, on Oct 28 2017 - 01:16 PM, said:

Well, here it is.

Looks great Yannick, that's a nice wheel.
I hope it brings you what you expect.

Just out curiosity, what did you pay for it ?

#27 GrandPrixYannick

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Posted Oct 28 2017 - 03:42 PM

 Pedro, on Oct 28 2017 - 02:19 PM, said:

 GrandPrixYannick, on Oct 28 2017 - 01:16 PM, said:

Well, here it is.
Looks great Yannick, that's a nice wheel.
I hope it brings you what you expect.

Just out curiosity, what did you pay for it ?
I payed for the wheel + shifter altogether €330,-

Edited by GrandPrixYannick , Oct 28 2017 - 03:43 PM.


#28 one2fwee

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Posted Oct 28 2017 - 06:15 PM

 Robert Fleurke, on Oct 25 2017 - 10:30 AM, said:

OK. I renamed the .csv log file to .txt. I'm not sure how to make a graph on my current system.

PS: was confused, if the FFB has a deadzone what does that mean? Now especially with ffb3test I don't feel anything at the straight and for the rest it feels progressive. ffb2 felt smoother. Sorry for hijacking the thread Yannick :P

Thanks Robert, here's a graph from your data:

force, startX, endX, deltaX, deltaXDeg
0, 0, 0, 0, 0
200, 42, 42, 0, 0.000000
400, 42, 42, 0, 0.000000
600, 42, 46, 4, 0.219740
800, 46, 46, 0, 0.000000
1000, 46, 46, 0, 0.000000
1200, 46, 46, 0, 0.000000
1400, 46, 61, 15, 0.659220
1600, 61, 62, 1, 0.054935
1800, 62, 254, 192, 8.624794
2000, 138, 604, 466, 20.985168
2200, -7, 683, 690, 31.093206
2400, -65, 700, 765, 34.444241
2600, -65, 761, 826, 37.190990
2800, -83, 842, 925, 41.695660
3000, -109, 900, 1009, 45.431240
3200, -117, 1026, 1143, 51.474091
3400, -143, 1066, 1209, 54.440578
3600, -143, 1243, 1386, 62.406151
3800, -134, 1319, 1453, 65.427574
4000, -132, 1400, 1532, 68.998352
4200, -134, 1504, 1638, 73.777695
4400, -134, 1605, 1739, 78.337303
4600, -134, 1673, 1807, 81.358727
4800, -137, 1655, 1792, 80.699509
5000, -134, 1765, 1899, 85.533783
5200, -138, 1824, 1962, 88.335472
5400, -140, 1931, 2071, 93.279617
5600, -140, 1983, 2123, 95.586891
5800, -134, 2119, 2253, 101.464935
6000, -138, 2122, 2260, 101.739609
6200, -132, 2210, 2342, 105.420250
6400, -134, 2307, 2441, 109.924919
6600, -140, 2372, 2512, 113.111153
6800, -140, 2450, 2590, 116.626991
7000, -143, 2456, 2599, 117.011536
7200, -147, 2522, 2669, 120.142830
7400, -147, 2669, 2816, 126.735031
7600, -151, 2715, 2866, 129.042297
7800, -158, 2785, 2943, 132.448273
8000, -160, 2830, 2990, 134.590729
8200, -161, 2909, 3070, 138.216446
8400, -155, 2984, 3139, 141.292801
8600, -176, 3123, 3299, 148.489288
8800, -178, 3207, 3385, 152.389679
9000, -184, 3253, 3437, 154.751877
9200, -184, 3344, 3528, 158.817062
9400, -187, 3316, 3503, 157.663437
9600, -189, 3346, 3535, 159.146683
9800, -192, 3307, 3499, 157.498627
10000, -192, 3307, 3499, 157.498627

Posted Image

So you have a 16% deadzone (the x axis is percentage force * 10, the y is the change in wheel position).
(There is actually slight movement before the deadzone but this is just the wheel getting knocked slightly or jitter in the data as it's so minor).

What the FFB deadzone means is that if a game gives you a force of 16% or below, you will not feel anything. So it basically chops off all of the lower strength forces meaning you feel things slower (because forces ramp up) and with less detail.

Also, if you look at the shape of the graph you may have the FFB up too high as you might be getting clipping at the top end. Look at the shape of the graph after 92%, it is basically flat, which shows clipping to me.

Compare to my graphs and data here:
http://srmz.net/inde...85

You will see that my G27 and your G25 are basically the same (although the shape of my graph looks less linear (straight) and therefore a bit worse). We both have huge deadzones.

Then look at the graph for my MOMO wheel and you will see that it is MUCH better - very little deadzone in comparison and much more linear.


Sadly, as Yannick has gone for the G920 he will experience the same problems.

Some more modern games allow you to set a minimum FFB setting to tell the game what the minimum FFB % where your wheel starts outputting force. Sadly GPL does not do this.
To be honest it would be better if a driver could be written that would do this (as well as straightening / linearising the overall curve) so that all games could experience linear FFB.

One area where I found it really made a big difference for me was in the netkar pro demo under breaking - you could feel the car twitch around and feel how the wheels may be locking on my MOMO wheel, but with the FFB deadzone on the G27 you feel nothing.

#29 Brocky05

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Posted Oct 28 2017 - 11:23 PM

hey one2fwee will that test work with every wheel

if so it would be good if people with different wheels could do the test then send in the results with a small review of their wheel

we could build up some sort of data base from a $100 cheap as chips wheel all the way up to the $10,000 Leo Bodner wheel

i think it would help people make a better choice





#30 Gui

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Posted Oct 29 2017 - 05:57 PM

That test does work, and it's recommended to run 100 counts instead of 50. Firmware is key and Fanatec has done some dubious things with theirs. I have an older wheel, from 2011-ish, and earlier firmware presented a 6% deadzone, which then became 10% with every subsequent update. Unfortunately that firmware and driver combo were problematic with rFactor2 (and only rFactor2) so after finishing a Redline GTP mod league, I updated my software so the FFB wouldn't be poor and rough in rF2.

#31 Robert Fleurke

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Posted Oct 30 2017 - 01:09 PM

First, grats to Yannick on your new wheel!

@one2fwee: thanks for explaining. I used to use MSFF wheels before, and adapted without problem to the G25. I'm using the ffb3test patch for GPL. I will run the test more often and see what the averages and deadzone are. But I'm happy with my G25 nevertheless. ;)

#32 one2fwee

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Posted Oct 30 2017 - 02:28 PM

Yes Brocky, the test will work with any direct input wheel.

However you have to bear in mind that it is only measuring the distance the wheel moves compared to the force applied to it - it has no way of actually measuring the force provided.
So in terms of linearity it isn't sooooo useful but it should at least give you an idea of your wheel's FFB deadzone.

A better test is something like this: http://www.racedepar...mptions.124937/
But it is obviously harder to setup. At least that way you are actually measuring real forces.

Robert, if you want more detailed results, you can change the value in the "Max Count" box to 100 from 50 to get 100 results.

Judging from reading that article, Offset X might change the starting position of the wheel but I'm not sure if this is true. If it is, it could be interesting altering this to see if the deadzone is only applied when the wheel is in the centre position - personally, I think that it is applied at all times and is just a simple "don't do anything with forces below such and such %", irrespective of the position of the wheel.

If anyone has an account on the assetto corsa forums, could someone check if anyone has done a pressure based test using a logitech wheel and post the results here?
http://www.assettoco...umptions.35286/

I don't have the game (my computer is almost 15 years old :$) so I cannot view their forums, which seems stupid (particularly as I made a topic trying to help them when the game was in pre-release and now i can't even access it).

The wheelcheck tool comes from an Iracing developer, but as I don't have iracing, I have no idea if any documentation is provided on the iracing forums or anything? If anyone has iracing it would be interesting to check.

Seriously, game specific private forums are a bad idea for the sim racing community -_-




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