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Ferrari 312-67 (Assetto Corsa)

Ferrari 312 1967 Assetto Corsa Sim F1

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#16 one2fwee

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Posted Sep 21 2017 - 12:03 PM

The thing is, problems with model accuracy don't just affect it from a visual point of view. The massively too wide tyre will make a big difference in physics in terms of available grip, rolling resistance (top speed) etc.

Quote

And let's not pretend to be "holier than thou" about model accuracy, as we've got a couple of franken-car abominations in GPL too (yes, Lola T222, I'm looking at you).

Could you elaborate on this with specific cars and inaccuracies? I don't wish to cause offence - I know the amount of effort modders put in and the community here goes to far greater lengths to ensure historical accuracy than the other simracing modders (and especially commercial developers). I just wish to inform myself and learn about history and also what to look out for :)

Edited by one2fwee, Sep 21 2017 - 12:12 PM.


#17 Gui

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Posted Sep 21 2017 - 11:38 PM

I was actually trying to find the exact 917k which was used for reference by the modder whose model they purchased.

#18 leon_90

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Posted Sep 22 2017 - 05:54 AM

View Postone2fwee, on Sep 21 2017 - 12:03 PM, said:

The thing is, problems with model accuracy don't just affect it from a visual point of view. The massively too wide tyre will make a big difference in physics in terms of available grip, rolling resistance (top speed) etc.

Physics is fine, drive cars perfectly fine and in a realistic manner. Graphics and physics are two different things. You can model a 312 and have it drive and being affected by wind like a golf cab. They are two completely separate planes, how a model looks does not affect in any way how it drives in our virtual reality. Plus, tyres have been fixed, so ;)

#19 one2fwee

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Posted Sep 22 2017 - 08:34 AM

Well obviously the visual model and the model the physics used are different but if they are using a car with later, wider wheels for visual then you would assume they also use this information for the physics. And a good implementation should try and make the two match or at least be as close as is realistically possible without tanking the fps.

Are you saying they have now changed the wheel width to approx 190mm front and  240mm rear (and approx tyre tread width to 140mm front and 180mm rear)? At least if this is to be believed: http://www.f1technic...203/ferrari-312

What about the Lotus 49 widths? Will those be corrected to what they used in 67 too?

#20 Pete Gaimari

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Posted Sep 22 2017 - 10:31 AM

The Lotus had wider wheels than the other cars in 67. I didn't think the AC Lotus wheels looked wrong.

#21 one2fwee

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Posted Sep 22 2017 - 01:07 PM

Look at these from 1967, the rear wheels especially:
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image

This from Zandvoort may look a little wider, they might have run wider rears there or it could be the angle tricking me - would need to see more photos.
Posted Image

Edited by one2fwee, Sep 22 2017 - 01:08 PM.


#22 one2fwee

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Posted Sep 22 2017 - 01:09 PM

Then compare to:
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image

Looks more similar to the wider wheels they were using in later years:
Posted Image

#23 Pete Gaimari

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Posted Sep 22 2017 - 01:52 PM

I don't see it? Especially, if you count the tread lines. Zandvoort for sure is wider. You can't blame Papy/AC for copying the widest wheel/tires used.

#24 Gui

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Posted Sep 22 2017 - 02:18 PM

View Postone2fwee, on Sep 22 2017 - 01:09 PM, said:

Then compare to:
Posted Imagethe wider wheels they were using in later years:
Posted Image



https://www.youtube....h?v=Pig6xZdptL4


Pete, I completely get your point. rF2's BT20 is an aberration but you'll also find they'll say the one reference car they used, out of many possibilities that better represent the car or a season, was "exactly like that." No comment on whether the modeler knew or cared about the car as I don't know him, but restoration efforts are often non-representative.

#25 Fat Rich

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Posted Sep 22 2017 - 09:54 PM

I guess if Ferrari or Classic Team Lotus say something like "we'll give you all the technical details, and every dimension you need from the real car"..... but then give details of a 49B with the non syncro adjustable ratio gearbox and wider tyres, or the museum 312 that isn't like the one they actually raced in 67, it's very hard to say "Um, no thanks, we'll make one by collecting and studying old photographs instead!" :)

The attention to detail is something unique to the GPL community, the modders here spend a huge amount of time getting information together and drawing on the huge amount of historic racing knowledge there is on this forum, a game studio like Kunos or ISI have to get a product to market ASAP and pay their staff.

Edited by Fat Rich, Sep 22 2017 - 09:55 PM.


#26 Art-J

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Posted Sep 23 2017 - 04:54 AM

View Postone2fwee, on Sep 21 2017 - 12:03 PM, said:

Quote

And let's not pretend to be "holier than thou" about model accuracy, as we've got a couple of franken-car abominations in GPL too (yes, Lola T222, I'm looking at you).

Could you elaborate on this with specific cars and inaccuracies? I don't wish to cause offence - I know the amount of effort modders put in and the community here goes to far greater lengths to ensure historical accuracy than the other simracing modders (and especially commercial developers). I just wish to inform myself and learn about history and also what to look out for :)

Sure, sice we all went off topic here anyway, I can continue with this one I guess ;).

Don't want to offend GPL car modders either, as the fact they build cars at all using prehistoric and clumsy track making tools is a miracle and brutal determination excercise in itself. However, whoever made the T222 back in 2011-12, certainly didn't have any scale drawings for the car (I've been looking hard for these myself, no luck!) and the final result obtained probably by eyeballing the photos was... meh.

I've made a few screenshots, fired up photoshop, and I'll let the comparison photos do the talking. To cut long story short - in GPL model, the wheelbase is way off, the whole car is too short, too tall and too narrow, also take a look at the whole rear section and note it doesn't have the sufficiently "voluptuous", wide and rounded rear fenders, which were THE trademarks of the real T220/222 series. Moreover, wheels that are too big and too wide apart make these issues even more visible. I mean, the main design features are all there allright, so it's clear what this 3D model was supposed to represent, but dimensions and proportions are just all over the place... It makes me sad, 'cause the T222 is my favourite "best of the rest" Can-Am car and the GPL model doesn't do it justice visually.

Unfortunately, my basic experiences with AutoCad3D and SolidEdge are useless for GPL trackmaking tools, so I do't think I could help with reshaping the model to make it better.

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#27 one2fwee

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Posted Sep 23 2017 - 12:07 PM

Yes I see what you mean. It reminds me of how the 3.0 GPLEA Lotus 49 nose bugged me by how it didn't look right, until it was fixed in the 3.1 version.

But yes, modelling things will never be perfect unless they are scanned, so it is always going to be dificult.
And you have to bear in mind that it will always be more difficult in GPL because of the old engine and limited polycount - particularly an issue with incredibly curvy cars like the Ferrari 330 P4!

And the community certainly puts a great amount of effort and care into their mods, especially considering the limited resources / contacts available to them compared to the major developers.

#28 Pete Gaimari

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Posted Sep 23 2017 - 02:54 PM

The iRacing Lotus 49 should be perfect since they had the real car to measure.

#29 Art-J

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Posted Sep 24 2017 - 11:51 AM

While we're talkign about Lotus wheels, what always has made me cringe about AC's rendition were the outer rings of the rims, which are just too "thick" and are THE most "off" aspect of that 3D model for me. They don't fit any spec of the car, historic or not and they make my eyes bleed whenever I look at them :D. Pity, because I probably spend as much time (if not more) watching replays as driving the damn cars. Even Project Cars 49s were better in this regard.

Still like driving it though. I wonder it Kunos guys are going to update the 3D model for any upcoming sequel of their sim (if it's going to feature L49 that is).

#30 one2fwee

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Posted Sep 25 2017 - 09:15 AM

View PostPete Gaimari, on Sep 23 2017 - 02:54 PM, said:

The iRacing Lotus 49 should be perfect since they had the real car to measure.
Well again, it depends what car they scanned ;)

I think they may have the same problem - what they scanned is used for historical racing and therefore has replica tyres (well if you think about it you aren't going to get any old car with the same spec tyres it raced on unless they never changed what width / size they used and people still produce accurate replica tyres).

For example:
Posted Image

Silverstone 67:
Posted Image

I do agree though, it is a much better approach to actually scan the cars - I don't get why AC don't do this considering they have scanning equipment.

Really, the best approach would be to try and find an 'as original as possible' car, scan it and then work out what is different and adapt the changes to turn into the correct spec for the years you are trying to simulate.

The coolest way to do it would be to simulate a particular season and have the car evolving over different rounds. Of course that would require by far the most research but it would be deep and interesting and a great history lesson.





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