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Mountain Course - Crowd Funded Scan - Expression Of Interest


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#1 Storris

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Posted Apr 11 2016 - 09:25 AM

UPDATE - UPDATE

Good news this evening, excellent news in fact. The formal quote is in:

The good folks at 3dlasermapping.com have submitted a formal quote of £9,850 to provide a coloured point cloud & geo-reference imaging of the Isle of Man's Snaefell Mountain Course (the road course used for the TT races).

I still have to find a data storage & webhosting partner for the produced data, but that should be complete this week and as soon as it is the Kickstarter will be launched. I'm also still waiting for a quote for point cloud>mesh conversion. When that is in, I'll be updating the campaign with a stretch goal.

According to anyone who has voiced an opinion so far, this price represents tremendous value, and I hope a successful campaign will provide just as much value to the sim racing community. If you're interested in seeing this develop to completion, then please do not hesitate to show your support. On the topic of support, if anyone wants to produce a themed video to be used at the top of the campaign's page, it would be appreciated. Let me know by PM, or simply make the video and send me links.

I'll update again with links to the campaign when we launch.

Thank You.

UPDATE ENDS


I've been in contact with a couple of Laser Scanning companies about getting the Isle of Man TT Course laser scanned and currently have an unofficial cost of £10,000.  The scanner will be providing a formal quote in short order.

The resultant data would be distributed via the many Sim Racing forums, free of charge to everyone who wants it in the hopes that we can finally get the racetrack that many of us 2 & 4 wheel sim racers have been longing for.

Would the members here be willing to contribute to a Kickstarter to get this done?

Edited by Storris, Apr 20 2016 - 02:41 PM.


#2 John Woods

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Posted Apr 11 2016 - 09:51 AM

Not familiar with Kickstarter...

Can I use PayPal?
Is it a pledge or payment?
Do I have to join, agree to some EULA etc, or just make a contribution and forget about it?

Seems in the interest of safety and RL motorsports some corporate help might be possible? Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki, race part manufacturers and race organizers...besides sim racers, real racers would surely benefit with an accurate track simulation.

Like the idea. Maybe it will start a trend.

Edited by John Woods, Apr 11 2016 - 09:53 AM.


#3 Storris

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Posted Apr 11 2016 - 10:12 AM

https://www.kickstar...acker questions

Kickstarter only takes your pledge once, and if, the project meets its minimum funding goal, but it doesn't currently accept PayPal.

The companies I've spoken to were involved in scanning Rockingham Raceway in the UK for Live for Speed.  I will hopefully have a formal quote in hand by the end of this week, which will be published on the Kickstarter project page when it's 'live'.

Corporate partners would make this a whole lot simpler, but not in a good way.  They would be unlikely to openly distribute the results freely to the sim-modding community.  The video game industry has had a very long time to create this, and they haven't done it yet.  Only Jester Interactive has a faithful version of the TT course, and they have declined to reply to any queries about the potential release of their track data, which is likely unusable anyway.

I'm not sure about starting a trend, I just want race on the TT track.

#4 Paddy the Irishman

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Posted Apr 11 2016 - 10:44 AM

How about your waiting for Jim Pearson ?

#5 Saiph

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Posted Apr 11 2016 - 11:01 AM

View PostStorris, on Apr 11 2016 - 09:25 AM, said:

.......
Would the members here be willing to contribute to a Kickstarter to get this done?
There's a project under way already for Grand Prix Legends, so I'll be waiting for that and won't join a Kickstarter. But good luck with the project. After you obtain the data, all you will need is someone to actually build the track!  :up:

#6 John Woods

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Posted Apr 11 2016 - 11:31 AM

Was suggesting some in the racing industry, not simracing industry, might consider this a good idea as well, especially if connected to racing at the Isle of Man. This kind of money, while significant to most of us, is less so to the heavyweights and middleweights.

The idea of publishing data for all to use does not detract from anyone's vested interest.
It supports safety, good racing, and would be a benefit to everyone.

#7 Storris

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Posted Apr 11 2016 - 11:44 AM

View PostPaddy the Irishman, on Apr 11 2016 - 10:44 AM, said:

How about your waiting for Jim Pearson ?

I've been waiting.  In that time I've had 2 children, went back to school to get a degree, witnessed geological time periods come & go etc, etc...
JP has made it clear over the last ten years that IoM GPL is not his priority and even when it is complete, he is not going to sanction shoddy conversions, and nor should he be put under pressure to change his plans.

But in the meantime I and many other 2 & 4 wheel racers want to drive the TT course, so the options are to hurry up & wait, or to do something proactive.

View PostSaiph, on Apr 11 2016 - 11:01 AM, said:

After you obtain the data, all you will need is someone to actually build the track!  :up:
There are plenty of people around who want this track, it's just a daunting exercise to create from scratch.  Having the track's basic layout will hopefully be plenty for track builders to get their teeth into and to start building versions for the various moddable sim games. And, depending on the project's success, we may have the opportunity to add 'stretch' goals, possibly employing some professional devs to pad the raw data with some objects & textures.

#8 jklhill

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Posted Apr 11 2016 - 01:59 PM

Great idea but I will wait for Jim Pearson to complete his and enjoy his abridged version in the meantime.

#9 Art-J

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Posted Apr 11 2016 - 11:27 PM

GPL community is small compared to other sims and some folks here don't mind waiting for Jim's version. I'd say You'll get better response asking about the idea on racedepartment and AC & rF2 forums (You probably have already?).

Edited by Art-J, Apr 11 2016 - 11:28 PM.


#10 Storris

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Posted Apr 12 2016 - 04:21 AM

Hi Art,

Yes, this is receiving enough support to let me believe that it will be successful.  I'm currently in talks with a development team who will be using the scan for their own fully featured project, which sounds like it will be a blast.  There will be more information on this when the campaign goes live.  I'm also hoping that we can get one or two more on board to increase the incentives for people to support us.

This should prove to be useful for everyone, including GPL'ers.  JP has done an awesome amount of work, so awesome that no-one has wanted to begin their own project until now, and the results of his work are likely to be incredible.  But if my reading of the situation is correct, the vast majority of his work has been in creating objects & textures.  If we can supply him, you & everyone else, with a 100% accurate frame on which to place those assets then, and I don't want to trivialise the amount of work this might take to accomplish, he'd simply have to populate the track with his assets.

Edited by Storris, Apr 12 2016 - 04:42 AM.


#11 Stefan Roess

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Posted Apr 18 2016 - 09:08 AM

Hi Storris

This is a very interesting project, but I doubt it will be of much interest for GPL.
If we ever should have a laser scan of IOM available I doubt that Jim Pearson will use it for his project,
because it would be way too much work to adjust his version to a laser scan as it is way more complicated to create tracks for GPL than with Bobs track builder for modern sims.
And as we know how accurate JP is working on his project I am sure he has spent a lot of time to research the track layout. So I guess that his version might not be far off a laser scanned version.

If JP won`t use the laser scan data for GPL I guess no one else will do so.
Even ginetto has stated in this thread (post #8)
Out In The Future
http://srmz.net/inde...showtopic=11356
that he won`t work on this huge IOM project as Targa Florio had almost put him over the edge.
And I don`t see anyone else on the GPL horizon to do such a huge track project for GPL.

Anyway I wish you all the best for you project.

Btw...
Bigben Interactive Announce TT Isle Of Man – Ride on the Edge
http://www.racedepar...he-edge.120655/

Edited by Stefan Roess, May 10 2016 - 05:06 PM.


#12 leon_90

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Posted Apr 18 2016 - 10:48 AM

From what I remember, Jim stated that he is not even working on the track any longer and was doubtful about it being released at all. So what makes everyone so confident that it will be and soon is not clear to me to be honest.
Of course I have nothing against his decision, after all it's his free time and his solo project. He has all the rights in the world to decide whatever he feels more comfortable with. Just don't get your hopes high because he literally said not to.

Anyway, laser scan data would be useless to GPL. Tommie explained briefly to me how track making works in GPL, and if I understood correctly (it is really complicated and that makes me appreciate more all the work done by our track-makers, Jim included obviously) laser scan data would be almost useless.

#13 ginetto

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Posted Apr 18 2016 - 12:12 PM

Laser scan data will be very useful for GPL, the problem is how long you take to create a more than 60 Km track in our sim.
My thought is that if Jim is not going to release the track, then we will not have it period. :)

#14 leon_90

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Posted Apr 18 2016 - 01:36 PM

View Postginetto, on Apr 18 2016 - 12:12 PM, said:

Laser scan data will be very useful for GPL

How? I thought that GPL used a completely different technique than that used in contemporary sims. You have a lot of experience in this area so you know best :D Just asking out of personal curiosity

#15 Border Reiver

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Posted Apr 18 2016 - 02:40 PM

Any and all track data is always useful. :)

You are correct that there would be no way to directly import this information into GPL though, so you could construct some sort of "perfect" 3d model from the data and then take measurements from this model from the comfort of your own PC to then make a simplified model to build in GPL, but that is still a long and complex process and certainly there is no sort of simple import data and then output track surface button you could push.

In all cases it has always been much easier to take the 3d surface created by the GPL editing software and import that and then build on it for other sims than it is to go the other way and convert tracks from other sims back into GPL.

Rob




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