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Driving 55 Mod Tips Needed

gpl 1955 1955 mod 1955 how to drive

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#21 KARTM

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Posted May 22 2020 - 08:23 AM

no it was on all the original lotus 76  the problem was to convince Peterson and Ickx to use it ,that and the reliability  of the new gearbox , so they came back to the old hewland   and finally to the 72   .i did not find a pic but he did the same thing )the double pedals ) on some lotus of the early 60,

#22 Arturo Pereira

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Posted May 22 2020 - 08:36 AM

View Postjgf, on May 21 2020 - 09:50 PM, said:

"...it was IMPOSSIBLE to brake with the left foot..."

In many cars, yes.  But, to play devil's advocate, in the real world a driver subconsciously processes so much tactile information - vibrations, g-forces, sounds, etc. - that are completely lacking in even the best sims, and even in a helmet has more peripheral vision than in a sim, that taking advantage of left foot braking, paddle shifters, etc. somewhat balances the loss of all that input.  (Somewhat ... I was a much better driver in RL than in any sim.)
The vast majority of the 1950s cars had the engine at the front and the differential and traction in the rear axle. So the transmission went between the legs of the driver. To the right were the throttle and the brake pedals, and to the left the clutch pedal. There was no way the F1 drivers that were driving such a car could use the left foot to brake.

In any street car, including rally cars, of course you have enough space to brake with the left foot, but we were talking about mid 1950s F1 cars.

#23 KARTM

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Posted May 22 2020 - 08:58 AM

in this picture a maserati the brake is completely to the right an the gaz in the center , not unusual on italian cars then , as for central tunnel for the shaft  it depend the 54-55 Mercedes was a roadster meaning that the shaft was on the side , the Lancia had  a transaxle gearbox in the back .but yes no one was doing left foot braking in 50s formula or sportscar , but in GPL… i dont see why not

Edited by KARTM, May 22 2020 - 09:25 AM.


#24 Arturo Pereira

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Posted May 22 2020 - 02:38 PM

View PostKARTM, on May 22 2020 - 08:58 AM, said:

but in GPL… i dont see why not

Sure, we don´t have their problem.

#25 Treetop64

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Posted May 23 2020 - 04:43 PM

Unlike in other mods, braking in the 1955 F1 cars happens in very distinct, carefully planned and executed phases.

>  Establishing initial application of the brakes at the end of accelerating down the preceding straight:  Application of the brakes here is done lightly - use only enough to just start slowing the car down and no more.  You'll have to start much earlier than you're perhaps used to with other mods.  Much of the slowing down at this phase is done with aggressive downshifting and use of engine braking (but careful, not too aggressively).  This is probably the hardest part to get right.  You have to practice and learn the technique best suited for your car and the particular corner you're approaching.

>  Mid-phase braking:  Maintaining the established light brake pedal pressure you found earlier (again, only enough brake pressure to start slowing the car down and no more), and continuing to downshift to the gear required for corner entry.  Sounds redundant to the first phase but here you've already found the "right" amount of brake pressure and downshift timing.  Here you're just consistently maintaining retardation.  It will be tempting to apply more brake as you slow but do not do this!  Maintain the established pressure - do not apply more brake pedal as you slow!  It is obviously important not to overheat the brakes.  Again, engine braking does much of slowing at this phase.

>  Late-braking and turn-in:  By now you've almost slowed sufficiently for comer entry.  Now, as turn-in approaches, you can start applying more brake pressure to ensure correct entry speed into the corner without overshooting.  It is safer to apply heavier braking when you are going slower and are almost at turn in.  The drums aren't rotating as much and you won't cover as much ground, so you won't be asking as much from them.  Provided you controlled brake temps properly during the first two phases of braking, you should be able to apply the brake pedal more aggressively at this point without worrying about fade and overshooting the corner, even as the brakes heat up.  However, do not "floor" the brakes - you still have to carefully modulate pressure even if you're using more brake pedal.  Tire scrub during turn-in to the apex is also used to slow the car down yet more.

This all requires quite a lot of practice to get right and be consistent lap after lap.  The first part of a full race is especially critical since your car will be heavy with fuel - you'll have to concentrate especially hard and be extra careful with the brakes.

I know this was a bit wordy, but I hope it was helpful.  Good luck!

Edited by Treetop64, May 23 2020 - 04:52 PM.


#26 Arturo Pereira

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Posted May 24 2020 - 11:58 AM

View PostTreetop64, on May 23 2020 - 04:43 PM, said:

Unlike in other mods, braking in the 1955 F1 cars happens in very distinct, carefully planned and executed phases.

>  Establishing initial application of the brakes at the end of accelerating down the preceding straight:  Application of the brakes here is done lightly - use only enough to just start slowing the car down and no more.  You'll have to start much earlier than you're perhaps used to with other mods.  Much of the slowing down at this phase is done with aggressive downshifting and use of engine braking (but careful, not too aggressively).  This is probably the hardest part to get right.  You have to practice and learn the technique best suited for your car and the particular corner you're approaching.

>  Mid-phase braking:  Maintaining the established light brake pedal pressure you found earlier (again, only enough brake pressure to start slowing the car down and no more), and continuing to downshift to the gear required for corner entry.  Sounds redundant to the first phase but here you've already found the "right" amount of brake pressure and downshift timing.  Here you're just consistently maintaining retardation.  It will be tempting to apply more brake as you slow but do not do this!  Maintain the established pressure - do not apply more brake pedal as you slow!  It is obviously important not to overheat the brakes.  Again, engine braking does much of slowing at this phase.

>  Late-braking and turn-in:  By now you've almost slowed sufficiently for comer entry.  Now, as turn-in approaches, you can start applying more brake pressure to ensure correct entry speed into the corner without overshooting.  It is safer to apply heavier braking when you are going slower and are almost at turn in.  The drums aren't rotating as much and you won't cover as much ground, so you won't be asking as much from them.  Provided you controlled brake temps properly during the first two phases of braking, you should be able to apply the brake pedal more aggressively at this point without worrying about fade and overshooting the corner, even as the brakes heat up.  However, do not "floor" the brakes - you still have to carefully modulate pressure even if you're using more brake pedal.  Tire scrub during turn-in to the apex is also used to slow the car down yet more.

This all requires quite a lot of practice to get right and be consistent lap after lap.  The first part of a full race is especially critical since your car will be heavy with fuel - you'll have to concentrate especially hard and be extra careful with the brakes.

I know this was a bit wordy, but I hope it was helpful.  Good luck!

Well said.

#27 syd_drake

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Posted May 24 2020 - 02:59 PM

View PostTreetop64, on May 23 2020 - 04:43 PM, said:

Unlike in other mods, braking in the 1955 F1 cars happens in very distinct, carefully planned and executed phases.

>  Establishing initial application of the brakes at the end of accelerating down the preceding straight:  Application of the brakes here is done lightly - use only enough to just start slowing the car down and no more.  You'll have to start much earlier than you're perhaps used to with other mods.  Much of the slowing down at this phase is done with aggressive downshifting and use of engine braking (but careful, not too aggressively).  This is probably the hardest part to get right.  You have to practice and learn the technique best suited for your car and the particular corner you're approaching.

>  Mid-phase braking:  Maintaining the established light brake pedal pressure you found earlier (again, only enough brake pressure to start slowing the car down and no more), and continuing to downshift to the gear required for corner entry.  Sounds redundant to the first phase but here you've already found the "right" amount of brake pressure and downshift timing.  Here you're just consistently maintaining retardation.  It will be tempting to apply more brake as you slow but do not do this!  Maintain the established pressure - do not apply more brake pedal as you slow!  It is obviously important not to overheat the brakes.  Again, engine braking does much of slowing at this phase.

>  Late-braking and turn-in:  By now you've almost slowed sufficiently for comer entry.  Now, as turn-in approaches, you can start applying more brake pressure to ensure correct entry speed into the corner without overshooting.  It is safer to apply heavier braking when you are going slower and are almost at turn in.  The drums aren't rotating as much and you won't cover as much ground, so you won't be asking as much from them.  Provided you controlled brake temps properly during the first two phases of braking, you should be able to apply the brake pedal more aggressively at this point without worrying about fade and overshooting the corner, even as the brakes heat up.  However, do not "floor" the brakes - you still have to carefully modulate pressure even if you're using more brake pedal.  Tire scrub during turn-in to the apex is also used to slow the car down yet more.

This all requires quite a lot of practice to get right and be consistent lap after lap.  The first part of a full race is especially critical since your car will be heavy with fuel - you'll have to concentrate especially hard and be extra careful with the brakes.

I know this was a bit wordy, but I hope it was helpful.  Good luck!

Lot's of good advice in this thread. Thanks all.

#28 paul_v

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Posted May 24 2020 - 03:48 PM

There has been some very helpful and informative stuff in this thread. I fully agree,

but any advice re the 55's regarding setups as well as getting to grips with the brake problems.

I dont find the 55's to be at all easy to try and dial out the excessive understeer and cant seem to get a suitable axle/clutches combination to be able to rotate or drive the car on the throttle.
some of the cars are powerful enough and the rear end seems loose enough , but for me although when in a slide or drift the cars are reasonably controllable they just seem to tend to plow straight on.

I do most of what people advise. I try to get the tyres at decent temps, get the best gearing etc but other than that the cars dont seem to respond to setup changes. not like the cars of other years anyway.

so are the setups that good out of the box?  if so then its just down to me not being able to drive them.  so is steering ratio and gearing, brake balance and some fuel all thats needed ????

ive tried camber changes etc, tyres tend to always have equal temps across the tread.. suppose being narrower and harder compounds that to be expected. but still fazes me.

I love driving them though.. even so.

Edited by paul_v, May 24 2020 - 03:49 PM.


#29 Stefan Roess

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Posted May 25 2020 - 01:45 AM

@paul_v

Here you can download the replay of our GPLRACER 55 mod fun race at Goodwood65:
http://srmz.net/inde...showtopic=13396
-> scroll down to post #5 for 55 (and 65) results and replays
-> you can not see the the brake lights in the replay but it could be helpful anyway

I was using the almost default setup of the Mercedes. My race fastest lap was 1m28.518s.
IIRC I have only adjusted the steering ratio to 8:1, added fuel and maybe changed break bias (don`t remember).
If you want I can post my setup here.
I think the 55 setups are pretty good out of the box. :)

Edited by Stefan Roess, May 25 2020 - 07:01 AM.


#30 paul_v

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Posted May 25 2020 - 04:45 AM


Thanks Stefan.

Will take a look.

But I'm now thinking that " If it ain't broken.. don't fix it"

Just finding a suitable steering ratio, yours would be fine @ 8:1 as I think I'm using an almost identical setup as yours at 520-540 degrees and then just sticking to fuel, brake bias and gearing as needed keeps things simple.

I like simple..

All it is then is the job of learning to drive the cars.

Paul.

#31 Brocky05

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Posted May 25 2020 - 10:00 PM

View Postpaul_v, on May 24 2020 - 03:48 PM, said:

There has been some very helpful and informative stuff in this thread. I fully agree,

but any advice re the 55's regarding setups as well as getting to grips with the brake problems.

I dont find the 55's to be at all easy to try and dial out the excessive understeer and cant seem to get a suitable axle/clutches combination to be able to rotate or drive the car on the throttle.
some of the cars are powerful enough and the rear end seems loose enough , but for me although when in a slide or drift the cars are reasonably controllable they just seem to tend to plow straight on.

I do most of what people advise. I try to get the tyres at decent temps, get the best gearing etc but other than that the cars dont seem to respond to setup changes. not like the cars of other years anyway.

so are the setups that good out of the box?  if so then its just down to me not being able to drive them.  so is steering ratio and gearing, brake balance and some fuel all thats needed ????

ive tried camber changes etc, tyres tend to always have equal temps across the tread.. suppose being narrower and harder compounds that to be expected. but still fazes me.

I love driving them though.. even so.
i would think with the engine up front and very little weight on the rear wheels the back end would swing around like a pendulum

i had no problem with oversteer in the low powered cars but as i moved up to the higher power i would loop the car around at just about every corner  

so i moved the brakes bias a click or two to the rear and lowered the rear roll bars that fixed the oversteer

if you did the opposite that should fix your understeer oooh  and slow down a litte more then add more power in the turn

#32 Michkov

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Posted May 26 2020 - 08:04 PM

View PostBrocky05, on May 25 2020 - 10:00 PM, said:

i would think with the engine up front and very little weight on the rear wheels the back end would swing around like a pendulum

With the engine mass on the front axle that doesn't make sense. The engine or rather its mass would want to continue in a straight line by inertia alone.

#33 Brocky05

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Posted May 26 2020 - 08:22 PM

View PostMichkov, on May 26 2020 - 08:04 PM, said:


With the engine mass on the front axle that doesn't make sense. The engine or rather its mass would want to continue in a straight line by inertia alone.
yes in a straight line but when you go off that line the front becomes a pivot point and the rear wants to come round

#34 Alan Davies

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Posted May 27 2020 - 02:29 AM

View PostBrocky05, on May 26 2020 - 08:22 PM, said:

yes in a straight line but when you go off that line the front becomes a pivot point and the rear wants to come round

I don't understand the science but definitely this having watched at Goodwood Revival and seen several offs for the Mas 250Fs.

#35 Brocky05

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Posted May 27 2020 - 09:37 AM

View PostAlan Davies, on May 27 2020 - 02:29 AM, said:

I don't understand the science but definitely this having watched at Goodwood Revival and seen several offs for the Mas 250Fs.
In my og post i said i would think when i meant i wouldn't think/thought

but it happens why?

my guess would be less weight less grip + hard skinny tires + loads of toque = oversteer

Edited by Brocky05, May 27 2020 - 09:37 AM.


#36 Lee200

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Posted May 27 2020 - 09:49 AM

Given the same four tires and disregarding aero forces, a car with more weight on the front will tend to understeer while a car with more weight on the rear will tend to oversteer.

#37 Michkov

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Posted May 27 2020 - 02:11 PM

View PostBrocky05, on May 26 2020 - 08:22 PM, said:

yes in a straight line but when you go off that line the front becomes a pivot point and the rear wants to come round

You need the front to change direction in the first place, something it is reluctant to do because the mass is concentrated there. And masses as Issac told us tend to resist changes in their motion. In the same vein the rear axel will want to keep going straight for the rear engined cars when you turn into a corner any driver of a BRM will back that up.

#38 PTRACER

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Posted May 27 2020 - 07:13 PM

I don't use anything other than the default setups and I find them to be very quick and not at all understeery. I think it's all in driving technique....

#39 Arturo Pereira

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Posted May 27 2020 - 08:44 PM

One important point I think:

Not all 1955 F1 cars are driven the same. The Maserati 250F loves to be driven sideways, while the W196 loves to be driven like a railway. One is lighter, the other is heavier. You just need to know how each car must be driven to be fast.

#40 PTRACER

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Posted May 28 2020 - 03:04 AM

View PostArturo Pereira, on May 27 2020 - 08:44 PM, said:

One important point I think:

Not all 1955 F1 cars are driven the same. The Maserati 250F loves to be driven sideways, while the W196 loves to be driven like a railway. One is lighter, the other is heavier. You just need to know how each car must be driven to be fast.

It's funny you say that, because i find the 250F to be very neutral handling and the W196 to prefer being sideways....




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