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Show Your Interest In The Possibility Of New Historical Simulator!

RFactor 2 ISI Studio 397

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#1 one2fwee

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Posted Sep 21 2016 - 06:46 PM

So with the news that RFactor 2 will be changing development hands / strategy, there was an interview at race department that was interesting.
http://www.racedepar...-part-1.126263/

In particular, it said:

Quote

RD: Ok that's good. So is anything already in development that we might see released in the near future?

TW: There are various things that we are waiting on data for and all of that stuff from ISI that we've just kind of moved over. I’m also close to signing a couple of full series, but we feel it’s also important to get rid of the sporadic single car licenses.

If you think about just the launch trailer that was based on the Grand Prix movie, I went to every single team from 1966 except from the Shannon team which didn't even start the British Grand Prix, I think their engine blew on the start line or something, I contacted every single one and really it was only Ferrari that were completely out of our range and probably still are, but all the others gave fairly reasonable prices and I managed to track everybody down.

It was kinda crazy and awesome, I got to speak and communicate with some of my heroes, and I'm really proud of the job I did tracking some of these things down but then the other content just never really happened. We licenced, and still have the licence, for the Eagle T1G and what I got from Mr. Gurney on that one was 1966, 67, 68 and 69. For 66 you had the Climax engine, for 67 you had the Weslake engine and then 68 69 you had little things that were different like little down planes on the front and things like that. That's still licenced and I still have the pictures that I took and the reference material and everything, but previously it just kept getting pushed back and that meant that why would I licence anything else and actually get a deal with anything else from 66 when we can't even build the Eagle car that we have? So that's been a big issue with content, and often what has limited us.

Single make series it obviously makes a lot more sense, but there is more of a focus now and Marcel seems kind of intent to not have single cars from series that have more than one car. We really need to flesh out some of the bones we have of some of these series types.

Now, I had already seen Tim talk about licencing other manufacturers cars for the 66 GP before, but I was unaware of the previous behind the scenes disinterest / resistance.
With a change of ownership and a slightly different ethos of development, it seems like they may now be more receptive in fleshing out the 60s GP cars and tracks into something that could become a worth successor to GPL.

All it would require is the rest of the grid's worth of cars (even if some are renamed representations) and a seasons worth of tracks. They already have Brabham BT-20 in the game for 1966 F1. It also includes Brabham and Hulme as licenced ai drivers.
In terms of other content there are fictional Matra and Tecno f1 / f2 / f3 cars for 68 and unspecified years - although i'm not sure how close these are to real models and what is just "inspired" (the models for ms5 and ms7 don't look similar at least). There are also some fictional Lola T70 variants on the GT side of things.

On the track side, they already have Spa, Monaco and Monza, all three i have been very impressed with the attention to detail and the accuracy.



Why am i posting this?
Well in order to encourage them to flesh out a season's worth of content with other cars / tracks, we need to show that there is a desire and interest in this kind of thing.
GPL is the only sim that there has been with a true focus on historical cars / tracks and attempt to simulate a full season / period in time. Not only is it about the base content but the atmosphere.

I know a lot of you have not even been interested in trying new sims such as RF2 for the very reasons that i've stated - there is no full season of content and so the atmosphere is lost. It feels like a toy box rather than something substantial and cohesive. The same can be said for all the new sims.

Well this is your opportunity to try and show there is interest for a new attempt at what you love.

I know that many people who play GPL or other historic sims (like P&G 3) do not read these forums anymore, so I would say if you have friends that race in GPL leagues or simply enjoy racing offline then share this information with them.



So if you want to show that you are interested then please make posts / topics at
http://isiforums.net...php/41-rFactor2
and
http://www.racedepar...s/rfactor-2.68/
or contact https://www.studio-397.com/

We need to show there is still a desire for this kind of thing.

Anyone with any ideas, please share them.

#2 Gui

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Posted Sep 21 2016 - 08:35 PM

The new ownership is keen on getting more involved with modders and offering the necessary support. If the base game can provide a more complete season offering, it could be the platform for the awesome GPL community to consider adopting.

Oh, and do bring up single-player season mode ;), Some fanboys seem to think it's acceptable to run your own spreadsheet from the game results as a substitute for ingame continuity and AI.

#3 Andreh

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Posted Sep 22 2016 - 09:54 AM

View PostGui, on Sep 21 2016 - 08:35 PM, said:

Some fanboys seem to think it's acceptable to run your own spreadsheet from the game results as a substitute for ingame continuity and AI.

Well, if there was a code that would make the AI behave differently depending on their championship position and race, per example, Sir Jack having to finish ahead at the last race to win the championship, and that would make him race faster and dangerously instead of his usual rythm, the spreadsheet solution would be really worst. But as no sim does that, excel, notepad or even paper and pencil do the job!

#4 leon_90

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Posted Sep 22 2016 - 11:21 AM

No Ferrari no party for me :D

mate, look, I know what you're saying and I agree but to be honest, I am tired of chasing windmills. A GPL successor will never come if not from a modding team. Devs needs to sell, and this kind of content does not sell well. Plus Luminis got so much to worry about right now that making a focused historic sim (and year specific) out of rFactor2 seems to me not that plausible.

Plus, Spa and Monza are so bad in rFactor2. Elevations, camber and corners are so wrong! Monaco is the best among the three but it has that too some flaws here and there.

Sorry mate, not trying to rain on anyone's parade :(
The only hope is that someday some passionate dev will start by making for example the 1967 F1 season. And starts selling the game. Then it'll add as DLC the WSC; then the F2, then the CanAm; then the Mountain Pass championship and so on. Then move on to other years and expand as time goes on the content avalaible.
This is something doable today with today's marketing ways.
But alas it's just a dream. Dreams cost nothing, but you may remain trapped in them.

#5 Fat Rich

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Posted Sep 22 2016 - 12:17 PM

View PostAndreh, on Sep 22 2016 - 09:54 AM, said:

Well, if there was a code that would make the AI behave differently depending on their championship position and race, per example, Sir Jack having to finish ahead at the last race to win the championship, and that would make him race faster and dangerously instead of his usual rythm, the spreadsheet solution would be really worst. But as no sim does that, excel, notepad or even paper and pencil do the job!

I think I read somewhere that GPL actually does exactly that.....can't remember where I read it though.

Edited by Fat Rich, Sep 22 2016 - 12:17 PM.


#6 leon_90

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Posted Sep 22 2016 - 12:30 PM

View PostFat Rich, on Sep 22 2016 - 12:17 PM, said:

View PostAndreh, on Sep 22 2016 - 09:54 AM, said:

Well, if there was a code that would make the AI behave differently depending on their championship position and race, per example, Sir Jack having to finish ahead at the last race to win the championship, and that would make him race faster and dangerously instead of his usual rythm, the spreadsheet solution would be really worst. But as no sim does that, excel, notepad or even paper and pencil do the job!

I think I read somewhere that GPL actually does exactly that.....can't remember where I read it though.

Exactlt, GPL does that but only in championship mode

#7 one2fwee

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Posted Sep 22 2016 - 02:04 PM

View Postleon_90, on Sep 22 2016 - 11:21 AM, said:

No Ferrari no party for me :D
Well you can easily have Ferrari, just rebadged. Or are you forgetting Coventry and Muramasa? :P

First you say

Quote

Devs needs to sell, and this kind of content does not sell well.
and then

Quote

This is something doable today with today's marketing ways.
hahaha make your mind up.
For me, I think it could do a lot better than anyone expects, so long as it has the gaming media on its side and actively trying to get people to try it like they did with pCars.
Of course it won't do as well as that as it is more niche but it would be sustainable.
Also, GPL has lots of longterm sales rather than short term. That's why although it may have been considered not to sell that well, in the long term it actually probably has - after it was sold to the budget labels and after people heard about how good and unique it was.

View Postleon_90, on Sep 22 2016 - 11:21 AM, said:

Plus, Spa and Monza are so bad in rFactor2. Elevations, camber and corners are so wrong! Monaco is the best among the three but it has that too some flaws here and there.

Can you go into specifics on this? They seems really quite good to me and i compared RF2 spa with our new GPL 67 spa and with real life footage from Grand Prix and found that both RF2 and the new GPL one were not exact and different in many ways, especially with surrounding elevations but overall seemed quite good.

With monza, it certainly seems way better than the GPL version and with a lot more attention to detail than the AC version. Especially things like being able to see down the original back straight as you drive through vialone, whereas in AC there is no break in the trees (unlike how it was in real life).

Of course I am willing to admit the RF2 versions are not perfect - no historic content is. Not even any modern laserscanned content, as it all depends on the level of detail you are willing to go to with the surroundings.

But yes, I just want to learn and understand what are the mistakes you speak of for my own knowledge.
So if you can go into detail it would be useful!

Thanks! :)

#8 John Woods

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Posted Sep 22 2016 - 02:12 PM

Point One:

All this stuff about licenses and rights, especially with respect to the history of the world, is a direct attack on art.
Art is not a corporation, nor is the view of it the property of the object of the art or what it is represented.
A picture of a Ferrari is not a Ferrari.

If someone with interest in challenging the arrogant presumption that art is property with wholly illogical exclusive corporate entitlements then I am all for it.
But so far no one has taken the dare to run the gauntlet and art is being bullied into submission.


Point Two

Hurray for creative innovation that keeps up with the state-of-the-art.
A. Representation of real time physics.
B. Hardware and software.
C. Safer racing and better driving.


Wish them all the best...

:)

Edited by John Woods, Sep 22 2016 - 02:19 PM.


#9 leon_90

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Posted Sep 22 2016 - 02:43 PM

Mate you didn't get my point. A sim focused only on a specific year would be an utter disaster. BUT, if they use it as a base to be expanded through DLCs it MIGHT work, because they might get the attention of other people and keep selling.

As you mention it, Monza's Ascari is wrong in rFactor 2 while is right in AC. As for the other tracks it would be a pain to go through all the details. You need to look better at our Spa67 because if it looks identical to you to ISI's version there is something wrong with your monitor :P jokin mate, don't take it seriously. Look, you want to believe in this project? Do it! I sincerely hope the best as it would my dream too :)

#10 one2fwee

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Posted Sep 22 2016 - 04:26 PM

You misunderstand me. I wasn´t suggesting not to have other content too.
All i was saying is that a season of specific series content, whether as DLC or as part of a main game is something that has been missing since gpl. Why would i care if it had other content as well? There is no harm there.

What is wrong with Vialone (Ascari) in RF2 compared to AC and reality?

And you haven't read what I wrote properly - I was saying that both Spa67 and the RF2 are quite different in trackside elevations and both quite different when compared to onboard footage from Grand Prix. However the track elevations and corners themselves look fairly decent on both and reasonably close to reality. It is very difficult to match elevations when based solely on old footage and photos - I wouldn't know how to do it. The fact that both have done such a good job is impressive to me.
If i was doing it i would scan the roads first with a stereo camera (or laser scan but dream on) in order to get today's elevation, hoping it is at least similar. Then i would look at period footage and try and reverse the changes so it more resembles what it was like then.
But of course, that has its limits.

It's not about believing in a project, I am just trying to get people here to show they still have interest. If no one cares anymore then of course nothing will ever get made. But i know a lot of people here play GPL and only GPL for the very reasons I have mentioned. They are not visible to the rest of the sim racing community, that's why i was trying to get people to show they are longing for something new with historical content.

Edit:

Here is a picture of what i was referring to about Vialone:

Posted Image

Edited by one2fwee, Sep 22 2016 - 05:41 PM.


#11 sergioloro

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Posted Sep 22 2016 - 05:46 PM

if historical content is avaliable for a new sim like RF2 and AC people will get interested on it. but so far we only get single cars, and few tracks.
I still dream about drove around Reims,Opatija,Brno,Dundrod,Spa,Sachsenring or any of that classics tracks with today sim, scratch made tracks, with lighting, shadows, dynamic wheater, and all other stuff.
but today the fact is there Monza, Spa and Monaco and seems like we are not get anything more.
I made tracks for GPL and right now i am doing some tracks for AC and RF2, the fact is you need a lot more of knowledge to make a track for modern sims, i have been learned for 3 years now,and every day i learn something new.
We "the GPL track editors" made all our tracks from scratch, with good, medium and even low quality, but we do it. Right now i dont see this kind of modder for modern sims, actually there is even not "60's classic tracks" projects for new sims, expect for my Hockenheim.
I hope some Mod Team create some classic content for modern sims, but i feel this "mods" are not going to be free anymore.

#12 one2fwee

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Posted Sep 22 2016 - 06:10 PM

Yes i completely agree with you Sergio. That is why i posted this - with the change of ownership and from reading the interview, I think they might be more receptive into building on what they have and doing something like this.

The reason for this topic was so people in this community could speak up to the new owners and show them that there is some interest.
Of course I'm not saying that they will do it, or any other developer will for that matter, but now, in a period of transition, seems like a good time to show that there is still desire for historical content.

(Longford for RF2 seems good, but you're right, i haven't seen any other mods really - I haven't kept up in a while and wasn't aware of your Hockenheim).

#13 leon_90

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Posted Sep 22 2016 - 06:12 PM

In rFactor2 you can take the Ascari at full throttle. That's wrong and historically impossible, only Jim Clark is known (according to him) to have been able to do that on an almost regular basis.
In AC you can't.

#14 sergioloro

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Posted Sep 22 2016 - 06:29 PM

View Postone2fwee, on Sep 22 2016 - 06:10 PM, said:

Yes i completely agree with you Sergio. That is why i posted this - with the change of ownership and from reading the interview, I think they might be more receptive into building on what they have and doing something like this.

The reason for this topic was so people in this community could speak up to the new owners and show them that there is some interest.
Of course I'm not saying that they will do it, or any other developer will for that matter, but now, in a period of transition, seems like a good time to show that there is still desire for historical content.

(Longford for RF2 seems good, but you're right, i haven't seen any other mods really - I haven't kept up in a while and wasn't aware of your Hockenheim).

i forgot about Longford :) ,  this track show me that historic tracks looks good into modern sims too :)
anyway, not sure how many people use GPL this days, but seems like audience go down from year to year.
GPL had a special place into my soul and my life, i meet wonderful people here, i discover a lot about motor racing history, i build the Targa Florio, all this journey was beatiful, but GPL already shows its age, and we cant compare GPL with modern sims, because there is not content for this sims, If a very well done Sachsenring is avaliable for RF2 or AC, with a F2 or F3 historical mod, for sure are going to blow up any GPLer mind, replace Sachsenring for any classic track and you are going to get same result.

#15 one2fwee

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Posted Sep 22 2016 - 07:45 PM

Yes Sergio, I agree completely. And it certainly seems a lot quieter here recently.
Hahah your mention of Sachsenring has reminded me that you were working on it. Is it for the new sims?


Leon, wow i didn't know that. I always thought it was always a flat out corner :o
It doesn't necessarily show that either AC or RF2 are more correct with their tracks their though. It could be to do with the grip of the cars and how they are modelled. Or it could be that the amount of grip given to the tarmac is too much or whatever. It would be good to compare both to an old aerial photo to really see. Although that won't really help for track width / camber sadly.
There are many different reasons why corners can be driven differently, other than the obvious: shape, width and camber.

Do you have any articles regarding Vialone not being flat out? It's a shock to me and would be interesting reading as I never knew that!

Edited by one2fwee, Sep 22 2016 - 07:48 PM.


#16 leon_90

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Posted Sep 23 2016 - 03:10 AM

There's a thread about the argument here somewhere, where evidence was shown about the correct angle for the Ascari. Ginetto wrote the majority of the posts regarding the argument, pointing at the right angle to use as it is wrong in GPL too. He's the man you are looking for for your answers ;)

#17 Lord

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Posted Sep 23 2016 - 03:25 AM

I don't think I'll ever consider rF2 until whoever decides to take it optimizes it by cutting away all the redundant code that it's in there: I feel that we need a special kind of stupid to have TWO AERO FORMULAS battling each other in the files and running at the same time, just to say one thing.

Also... as a mechanical engineer, the BT20 made me sick: the values are all goddamn wrong, it's too bumpy, the rear oscillates to much because its natural frequency is all :angry33: ed up... it's a mess. It's a real unadulterated disaster. Also the Repco engine is too frail: it blew up on me at 5000 RPM. No joke. It was a workhorse in real life, why it has been rendered as a glass cannon I can't know.

The tracks are bleak and run like : :crap::: I can run rFactor with over 50 cars in GTPC all maxed out at modern, F1 '15-ripped Monaco, but in rF2 if I have just 2 cars is a shitfest in classic Monaco. What the hell: there's waaaaay less detail overall and it makes drying paint look like Usain Bolt! Even GPL's Spa '67 is heavier than that and I can run it no problem with all cars, bandwith patch with max cars in the rear and starting from the rear with the GPL Fog addon on it. Really, I can't understand.

Again, to me, they have to optimize heavily the product. If F1 2016 and AC maxed out can run with no hiccups on a ATI HD Radoen 5770, I don't see why RF2 can't.

#18 Fat Rich

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Posted Sep 23 2016 - 05:23 AM

View PostLord, on Sep 23 2016 - 03:25 AM, said:

........................

Again, to me, they have to optimize heavily the product. If F1 2016 and AC maxed out can run with no hiccups on a ATI HD Radoen 5770, I don't see why RF2 can't.

I'm in exactly the same situation, I can run DX11 titles super smooth on triple screens with decent detail and frame rates, rF2 I get massive stuttering on a single screen on the lowest detail with no other cars on track.....totally unplayable.

Apparently rF2 currently doesn't like older AMD card like yours and mine (Radeon 7870), presumably when they move it to DX11 it'll make a huge difference for us.... if you can wait that long :idunno:

Then there's a whole load of other things they need to fix..... some car / track combinations are fantastic, some are dismal, and everything in between. The content is all over the place, it doesn't feel like a cohesive product the way the official content in Assetto Corsa does.

And then there's the spooky looking flagmen, Renault Clio pace car in 1966, no rain on visor / windscreen, having to use a text editor to access some pretty important settings, lack of the electronic systems found on most modern race cars and having to use rF2 gamey ABS and traction control, basic transmission model (all those missed shifts in the Lola / Howston).... so many little details annoy me about rF2, which is a shame because on paper it's the best sim out there by miles.

But the bottom line: I just don't enjoy driving it as much as more "basic" sims like Dirt Rally, F1 2016, Assetto Corsa and of course GPL. Even if it was full of historic race cars and tracks it might not be enough to make me give up GPL.

These videos sum it up for me, which game would you rather play?

https://www.youtube....h?v=C80Y-JbA1tU

or

https://www.youtube....h?v=tvv9RO8VU4Y

Edited by Fat Rich, Sep 23 2016 - 05:29 AM.


#19 one2fwee

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Posted Sep 23 2016 - 02:24 PM

Yes, I agree, the optimisation of RF2 is really quite bad. Whether they improve this when the move to dx11 will remain to be seen - I would guess unlikely but hopefully I am wrong. I'd much rather a move to vulkan - they'd have an opportunity to re-write things in a much more optimised way and also free up the cpu overhead so they can do more with the physics and the gpu isn't bottlenecked. It would also drastically improve the multi-gpu situation.
Mind you it's probably a bit early for vulkan but it still seems a bit of a waste going to dx11, considering that still has CPU bottlenecking problems.

The whole engine just seems really unoptimised to me tbh.

That said, the base physics and what they are trying to actually do seem some of the most advanced that there is.

But like you say, a lot of details are missing. I mean, safety cars with historical content, come on! No pitboards and stuff either.
That all comes with part of making a season of period content though, rather than just a mish mash of odds and ends.

#20 Gui

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Posted Sep 23 2016 - 06:35 PM

rF2 circuits lack atmosphere and have so many areas or trackside buildings with unnecessary amounts of polygons that could be invested on the racing surface. Unoptimized DX9 processing. The color palette and atmosphere are depressing. Tire pressures, temperature and camber are still incomplete. Some artists are stubborn and can't accept not being right. Terrible audio. Etc. But it's still the current game where, under Luminis leadership, we can find a home for historic and endurance racing.


I don't have data and setup sheets to back me up but I know chassis behavior and how they are setup aren't right. Myself and a guy who was a mechanic in the 60's would make the argument about how soft everything was and the excessive movement, with poor tire performance and wrong pressures, but it was perennially overlooked. Yet some guys love to claim it's like the real thing. The GPL community is the best to provide reference to historic content so, Lord, people like you should post making the argument and presenting your facts about the cars. It's the only way to drive change especially with a new owner who is a proper sim racer, invested in the platform and better suited to making decisions about the game than the previous.

Edited by Gui, Sep 23 2016 - 07:09 PM.






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