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Show Your Interest In The Possibility Of New Historical Simulator!

RFactor 2 ISI Studio 397

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#1 one2fwee

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Posted Sep 21 2016 - 06:46 PM

So with the news that RFactor 2 will be changing development hands / strategy, there was an interview at race department that was interesting.
http://www.racedepar...-part-1.126263/

In particular, it said:

Quote

RD: Ok that's good. So is anything already in development that we might see released in the near future?

TW: There are various things that we are waiting on data for and all of that stuff from ISI that we've just kind of moved over. I’m also close to signing a couple of full series, but we feel it’s also important to get rid of the sporadic single car licenses.

If you think about just the launch trailer that was based on the Grand Prix movie, I went to every single team from 1966 except from the Shannon team which didn't even start the British Grand Prix, I think their engine blew on the start line or something, I contacted every single one and really it was only Ferrari that were completely out of our range and probably still are, but all the others gave fairly reasonable prices and I managed to track everybody down.

It was kinda crazy and awesome, I got to speak and communicate with some of my heroes, and I'm really proud of the job I did tracking some of these things down but then the other content just never really happened. We licenced, and still have the licence, for the Eagle T1G and what I got from Mr. Gurney on that one was 1966, 67, 68 and 69. For 66 you had the Climax engine, for 67 you had the Weslake engine and then 68 69 you had little things that were different like little down planes on the front and things like that. That's still licenced and I still have the pictures that I took and the reference material and everything, but previously it just kept getting pushed back and that meant that why would I licence anything else and actually get a deal with anything else from 66 when we can't even build the Eagle car that we have? So that's been a big issue with content, and often what has limited us.

Single make series it obviously makes a lot more sense, but there is more of a focus now and Marcel seems kind of intent to not have single cars from series that have more than one car. We really need to flesh out some of the bones we have of some of these series types.

Now, I had already seen Tim talk about licencing other manufacturers cars for the 66 GP before, but I was unaware of the previous behind the scenes disinterest / resistance.
With a change of ownership and a slightly different ethos of development, it seems like they may now be more receptive in fleshing out the 60s GP cars and tracks into something that could become a worth successor to GPL.

All it would require is the rest of the grid's worth of cars (even if some are renamed representations) and a seasons worth of tracks. They already have Brabham BT-20 in the game for 1966 F1. It also includes Brabham and Hulme as licenced ai drivers.
In terms of other content there are fictional Matra and Tecno f1 / f2 / f3 cars for 68 and unspecified years - although i'm not sure how close these are to real models and what is just "inspired" (the models for ms5 and ms7 don't look similar at least). There are also some fictional Lola T70 variants on the GT side of things.

On the track side, they already have Spa, Monaco and Monza, all three i have been very impressed with the attention to detail and the accuracy.



Why am i posting this?
Well in order to encourage them to flesh out a season's worth of content with other cars / tracks, we need to show that there is a desire and interest in this kind of thing.
GPL is the only sim that there has been with a true focus on historical cars / tracks and attempt to simulate a full season / period in time. Not only is it about the base content but the atmosphere.

I know a lot of you have not even been interested in trying new sims such as RF2 for the very reasons that i've stated - there is no full season of content and so the atmosphere is lost. It feels like a toy box rather than something substantial and cohesive. The same can be said for all the new sims.

Well this is your opportunity to try and show there is interest for a new attempt at what you love.

I know that many people who play GPL or other historic sims (like P&G 3) do not read these forums anymore, so I would say if you have friends that race in GPL leagues or simply enjoy racing offline then share this information with them.



So if you want to show that you are interested then please make posts / topics at
http://isiforums.net...php/41-rFactor2
and
http://www.racedepar...s/rfactor-2.68/
or contact https://www.studio-397.com/

We need to show there is still a desire for this kind of thing.

Anyone with any ideas, please share them.

#2 Gui

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Posted Sep 21 2016 - 08:35 PM

The new ownership is keen on getting more involved with modders and offering the necessary support. If the base game can provide a more complete season offering, it could be the platform for the awesome GPL community to consider adopting.

Oh, and do bring up single-player season mode ;), Some fanboys seem to think it's acceptable to run your own spreadsheet from the game results as a substitute for ingame continuity and AI.

#3 Andreh

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Posted Sep 22 2016 - 09:54 AM

View PostGui, on Sep 21 2016 - 08:35 PM, said:

Some fanboys seem to think it's acceptable to run your own spreadsheet from the game results as a substitute for ingame continuity and AI.

Well, if there was a code that would make the AI behave differently depending on their championship position and race, per example, Sir Jack having to finish ahead at the last race to win the championship, and that would make him race faster and dangerously instead of his usual rythm, the spreadsheet solution would be really worst. But as no sim does that, excel, notepad or even paper and pencil do the job!

#4 leon_90

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Posted Sep 22 2016 - 11:21 AM

No Ferrari no party for me :D

mate, look, I know what you're saying and I agree but to be honest, I am tired of chasing windmills. A GPL successor will never come if not from a modding team. Devs needs to sell, and this kind of content does not sell well. Plus Luminis got so much to worry about right now that making a focused historic sim (and year specific) out of rFactor2 seems to me not that plausible.

Plus, Spa and Monza are so bad in rFactor2. Elevations, camber and corners are so wrong! Monaco is the best among the three but it has that too some flaws here and there.

Sorry mate, not trying to rain on anyone's parade :(
The only hope is that someday some passionate dev will start by making for example the 1967 F1 season. And starts selling the game. Then it'll add as DLC the WSC; then the F2, then the CanAm; then the Mountain Pass championship and so on. Then move on to other years and expand as time goes on the content avalaible.
This is something doable today with today's marketing ways.
But alas it's just a dream. Dreams cost nothing, but you may remain trapped in them.

#5 Fat Rich

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Posted Sep 22 2016 - 12:17 PM

View PostAndreh, on Sep 22 2016 - 09:54 AM, said:

Well, if there was a code that would make the AI behave differently depending on their championship position and race, per example, Sir Jack having to finish ahead at the last race to win the championship, and that would make him race faster and dangerously instead of his usual rythm, the spreadsheet solution would be really worst. But as no sim does that, excel, notepad or even paper and pencil do the job!

I think I read somewhere that GPL actually does exactly that.....can't remember where I read it though.

Edited by Fat Rich, Sep 22 2016 - 12:17 PM.


#6 leon_90

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Posted Sep 22 2016 - 12:30 PM

View PostFat Rich, on Sep 22 2016 - 12:17 PM, said:

View PostAndreh, on Sep 22 2016 - 09:54 AM, said:

Well, if there was a code that would make the AI behave differently depending on their championship position and race, per example, Sir Jack having to finish ahead at the last race to win the championship, and that would make him race faster and dangerously instead of his usual rythm, the spreadsheet solution would be really worst. But as no sim does that, excel, notepad or even paper and pencil do the job!

I think I read somewhere that GPL actually does exactly that.....can't remember where I read it though.

Exactlt, GPL does that but only in championship mode

#7 one2fwee

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Posted Sep 22 2016 - 02:04 PM

View Postleon_90, on Sep 22 2016 - 11:21 AM, said:

No Ferrari no party for me :D
Well you can easily have Ferrari, just rebadged. Or are you forgetting Coventry and Muramasa? :P

First you say

Quote

Devs needs to sell, and this kind of content does not sell well.
and then

Quote

This is something doable today with today's marketing ways.
hahaha make your mind up.
For me, I think it could do a lot better than anyone expects, so long as it has the gaming media on its side and actively trying to get people to try it like they did with pCars.
Of course it won't do as well as that as it is more niche but it would be sustainable.
Also, GPL has lots of longterm sales rather than short term. That's why although it may have been considered not to sell that well, in the long term it actually probably has - after it was sold to the budget labels and after people heard about how good and unique it was.

View Postleon_90, on Sep 22 2016 - 11:21 AM, said:

Plus, Spa and Monza are so bad in rFactor2. Elevations, camber and corners are so wrong! Monaco is the best among the three but it has that too some flaws here and there.

Can you go into specifics on this? They seems really quite good to me and i compared RF2 spa with our new GPL 67 spa and with real life footage from Grand Prix and found that both RF2 and the new GPL one were not exact and different in many ways, especially with surrounding elevations but overall seemed quite good.

With monza, it certainly seems way better than the GPL version and with a lot more attention to detail than the AC version. Especially things like being able to see down the original back straight as you drive through vialone, whereas in AC there is no break in the trees (unlike how it was in real life).

Of course I am willing to admit the RF2 versions are not perfect - no historic content is. Not even any modern laserscanned content, as it all depends on the level of detail you are willing to go to with the surroundings.

But yes, I just want to learn and understand what are the mistakes you speak of for my own knowledge.
So if you can go into detail it would be useful!

Thanks! :)

#8 John Woods

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Posted Sep 22 2016 - 02:12 PM

Point One:

All this stuff about licenses and rights, especially with respect to the history of the world, is a direct attack on art.
Art is not a corporation, nor is the view of it the property of the object of the art or what it is represented.
A picture of a Ferrari is not a Ferrari.

If someone with interest in challenging the arrogant presumption that art is property with wholly illogical exclusive corporate entitlements then I am all for it.
But so far no one has taken the dare to run the gauntlet and art is being bullied into submission.


Point Two

Hurray for creative innovation that keeps up with the state-of-the-art.
A. Representation of real time physics.
B. Hardware and software.
C. Safer racing and better driving.


Wish them all the best...

:)

Edited by John Woods, Sep 22 2016 - 02:19 PM.


#9 leon_90

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Posted Sep 22 2016 - 02:43 PM

Mate you didn't get my point. A sim focused only on a specific year would be an utter disaster. BUT, if they use it as a base to be expanded through DLCs it MIGHT work, because they might get the attention of other people and keep selling.

As you mention it, Monza's Ascari is wrong in rFactor 2 while is right in AC. As for the other tracks it would be a pain to go through all the details. You need to look better at our Spa67 because if it looks identical to you to ISI's version there is something wrong with your monitor :P jokin mate, don't take it seriously. Look, you want to believe in this project? Do it! I sincerely hope the best as it would my dream too :)

#10 one2fwee

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Posted Sep 22 2016 - 04:26 PM

You misunderstand me. I wasn´t suggesting not to have other content too.
All i was saying is that a season of specific series content, whether as DLC or as part of a main game is something that has been missing since gpl. Why would i care if it had other content as well? There is no harm there.

What is wrong with Vialone (Ascari) in RF2 compared to AC and reality?

And you haven't read what I wrote properly - I was saying that both Spa67 and the RF2 are quite different in trackside elevations and both quite different when compared to onboard footage from Grand Prix. However the track elevations and corners themselves look fairly decent on both and reasonably close to reality. It is very difficult to match elevations when based solely on old footage and photos - I wouldn't know how to do it. The fact that both have done such a good job is impressive to me.
If i was doing it i would scan the roads first with a stereo camera (or laser scan but dream on) in order to get today's elevation, hoping it is at least similar. Then i would look at period footage and try and reverse the changes so it more resembles what it was like then.
But of course, that has its limits.

It's not about believing in a project, I am just trying to get people here to show they still have interest. If no one cares anymore then of course nothing will ever get made. But i know a lot of people here play GPL and only GPL for the very reasons I have mentioned. They are not visible to the rest of the sim racing community, that's why i was trying to get people to show they are longing for something new with historical content.

Edit:

Here is a picture of what i was referring to about Vialone:

Posted Image

Edited by one2fwee, Sep 22 2016 - 05:41 PM.


#11 sergioloro

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Posted Sep 22 2016 - 05:46 PM

if historical content is avaliable for a new sim like RF2 and AC people will get interested on it. but so far we only get single cars, and few tracks.
I still dream about drove around Reims,Opatija,Brno,Dundrod,Spa,Sachsenring or any of that classics tracks with today sim, scratch made tracks, with lighting, shadows, dynamic wheater, and all other stuff.
but today the fact is there Monza, Spa and Monaco and seems like we are not get anything more.
I made tracks for GPL and right now i am doing some tracks for AC and RF2, the fact is you need a lot more of knowledge to make a track for modern sims, i have been learned for 3 years now,and every day i learn something new.
We "the GPL track editors" made all our tracks from scratch, with good, medium and even low quality, but we do it. Right now i dont see this kind of modder for modern sims, actually there is even not "60's classic tracks" projects for new sims, expect for my Hockenheim.
I hope some Mod Team create some classic content for modern sims, but i feel this "mods" are not going to be free anymore.

#12 one2fwee

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Posted Sep 22 2016 - 06:10 PM

Yes i completely agree with you Sergio. That is why i posted this - with the change of ownership and from reading the interview, I think they might be more receptive into building on what they have and doing something like this.

The reason for this topic was so people in this community could speak up to the new owners and show them that there is some interest.
Of course I'm not saying that they will do it, or any other developer will for that matter, but now, in a period of transition, seems like a good time to show that there is still desire for historical content.

(Longford for RF2 seems good, but you're right, i haven't seen any other mods really - I haven't kept up in a while and wasn't aware of your Hockenheim).

#13 leon_90

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Posted Sep 22 2016 - 06:12 PM

In rFactor2 you can take the Ascari at full throttle. That's wrong and historically impossible, only Jim Clark is known (according to him) to have been able to do that on an almost regular basis.
In AC you can't.

#14 sergioloro

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Posted Sep 22 2016 - 06:29 PM

View Postone2fwee, on Sep 22 2016 - 06:10 PM, said:

Yes i completely agree with you Sergio. That is why i posted this - with the change of ownership and from reading the interview, I think they might be more receptive into building on what they have and doing something like this.

The reason for this topic was so people in this community could speak up to the new owners and show them that there is some interest.
Of course I'm not saying that they will do it, or any other developer will for that matter, but now, in a period of transition, seems like a good time to show that there is still desire for historical content.

(Longford for RF2 seems good, but you're right, i haven't seen any other mods really - I haven't kept up in a while and wasn't aware of your Hockenheim).

i forgot about Longford :) ,  this track show me that historic tracks looks good into modern sims too :)
anyway, not sure how many people use GPL this days, but seems like audience go down from year to year.
GPL had a special place into my soul and my life, i meet wonderful people here, i discover a lot about motor racing history, i build the Targa Florio, all this journey was beatiful, but GPL already shows its age, and we cant compare GPL with modern sims, because there is not content for this sims, If a very well done Sachsenring is avaliable for RF2 or AC, with a F2 or F3 historical mod, for sure are going to blow up any GPLer mind, replace Sachsenring for any classic track and you are going to get same result.

#15 one2fwee

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Posted Sep 22 2016 - 07:45 PM

Yes Sergio, I agree completely. And it certainly seems a lot quieter here recently.
Hahah your mention of Sachsenring has reminded me that you were working on it. Is it for the new sims?


Leon, wow i didn't know that. I always thought it was always a flat out corner :o
It doesn't necessarily show that either AC or RF2 are more correct with their tracks their though. It could be to do with the grip of the cars and how they are modelled. Or it could be that the amount of grip given to the tarmac is too much or whatever. It would be good to compare both to an old aerial photo to really see. Although that won't really help for track width / camber sadly.
There are many different reasons why corners can be driven differently, other than the obvious: shape, width and camber.

Do you have any articles regarding Vialone not being flat out? It's a shock to me and would be interesting reading as I never knew that!

Edited by one2fwee, Sep 22 2016 - 07:48 PM.






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