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Road America/Elkhart Lake


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#1 jgf

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Posted Aug 20 2012 - 08:29 PM

Has no one created this track for GPL?  I still have the twelve year old ICR2 conversion by David Noonan, which is barren, lifeless, and devoid of detail (no disparagement of Mr Noonan, the track was fine in its day;  just horribly dated now).  This has long been one of my favorite tracks in all sims but, in comparison with other GPL tracks, Elkhart is woefully below average.

#2 Larko29

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Posted Aug 20 2012 - 09:42 PM

I believe Mark Beckman had either a .gtk file or very basic Alpha of this track done, I can remember him offering the files to anyone interested in pursuing completing the track either here or at the old RSC.

Not sure if anyone took him up on the offer though?

Craig

#3 tdurrett

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Posted Aug 21 2012 - 09:35 AM

There is a file called Wolfgang_Trackpack that adds the tracks from C.A.R.T. game from Papyrus.


Detroit
Long Beach
Toronto
Vancouver

Elkhart Lake
Cleveland
Mid Ohio

and a graphic addon by Andre Streu at GPL Track database gpltd and a BAPOM covers.

Here's the link... http://srmz.net/inde...?showtopic=5914

#4 rachet1

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Posted Aug 21 2012 - 07:47 PM

Mark Beckman's track is closer to being a beta than an alpha track in development.
It's an earlier version(as the track was like in the 60s) of the track. No concrete barriers around the track. Lots more trees and hillside still there in Canada Corner.

A number of years ago Mark raced with us in NAGPL.
He posted a few of his projects in our files and included the track for us to race at.
Great track just needs a little spit & polish to finish.

Last I heard from Mark was when they had one of bad earthquakes in China. He made it through O.K. He was working on some project for cars they were or are building there.
I don't have permission to release any of his work. Unless you were able to get the track when it was available, can't help anyone out with Mark's version.

Richard(Ratchet):drive:

#5 Cheapracer

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Posted Aug 22 2012 - 10:13 AM

Anyone can "release" any of my old stuff anytime they want, the purpose for anything I did was always to have fun.

I'll look at some old CD's and see if the build files are still around - I have a .trk to .gtk converter laying around still anyway that can take the "very much a beta" track back to a .gtk.

I loved that track, you can not believe how much time I spent on turn 11 to live up to it's reputation but I did get some gradients wrong in the alley.

#6 Cheapracer

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Posted Aug 22 2012 - 10:16 AM

View Postrachet1, on Aug 21 2012 - 07:47 PM, said:


Last I heard from Mark was when they had one of bad earthquakes in China. He made it through O.K.

Yup, affected me more than I realised though after spending the first 2 days volunteering at a hospital, not something anyone wants to see in their lifetime.

#7 davef

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Posted Aug 22 2012 - 10:32 AM

Thank you Cheapracer for all your great work over the years for us GPLer's to enjoy ! :artist:

I really enjoy your wetspa track I use for the 65 Mod. :hat-tip:

#8 jgf

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Posted Aug 22 2012 - 02:10 PM

View Posttdurrett, on Aug 21 2012 - 09:35 AM, said:

There is a file called Wolfgang_Trackpack that adds the tracks from C.A.R.T. game from Papyrus.


Detroit
Long Beach
Toronto
Vancouver

Elkhart Lake
Cleveland
Mid Ohio

and a graphic addon by Andre Streu at GPL Track database gpltd and a BAPOM covers.

Here's the link... http://srmz.net/inde...?showtopic=5914

These are the original ICR2 tracks converted by Noonan in the early days of GPL, so that Elkhart is what I have.  (FWIW, CART Racing was a supposed "sim" from Micro$oft;  I never tried it but from what I read wasn't missing anything.)

Edited by jgf, Aug 22 2012 - 02:13 PM.


#9 rachet1

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Posted Aug 22 2012 - 06:49 PM

Hey Mark !!! :wave:
glad to see you're still around !!!!  :cheers:  
since I got the O.K. from you, I'd be glad to share the track
Would be nice to have somebody finish it for the CanAm mod. :idea: Hint ! Hint !  
Are you still working on that car project or is that a hush hush deal ???  :eye:
take care  :bananapowerslide:

Richard(Ratchet):drive:

#10 Stefan Roess

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Posted Aug 23 2012 - 03:08 AM

View PostCheapracer, on Aug 22 2012 - 10:13 AM, said:

I'll look at some old CD's and see if the build files are still around - I have a .trk to .gtk converter laying around still anyway that can take the "very much a beta" track back to a .gtk.

Hi Mark!

In case you find them, could you please get in touch with Ginetto (+ team) who is/are working on CanAm tracks.

Thx for all your great work!

Cheers
Stefan

Edited by Stefan Roess, Aug 23 2012 - 03:09 AM.


#11 jgf

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Posted Aug 23 2012 - 10:43 AM

Ah, for once I seem to have stirred up something good.  I'll live with my old Elkhart and await, more or less patiently, a new version.

#12 Royale

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Posted Aug 23 2012 - 03:11 PM

View Postjgf, on Aug 23 2012 - 10:43 AM, said:

Ah, for once I seem to have stirred up something good.  I'll live with my old Elkhart and await, more or less patiently, a new version.


You'll like the new one  :2c:

#13 rachet1

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Posted Aug 24 2012 - 06:29 PM

Figured out how to create zip file & here's Cheapracer's Road America/Elkhart Lake track.
If you are using GEM, you will have to uncheck box in season manager(list all tracks in SGEM.ini).
Enjoy !!! :thumbup:

Richard(Ratchet):drive:

Attached File  RoadAm.zip   2.6MB   218 downloads

#14 gliebzeit

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Posted Aug 25 2012 - 06:23 PM

View PostRoyal, on Aug 23 2012 - 03:11 PM, said:

View Postjgf, on Aug 23 2012 - 10:43 AM, said:

Ah, for once I seem to have stirred up something good.  I'll live with my old Elkhart and await, more or less patiently, a new version.


You'll like the new one  :2c:

THAT sounds very promising!  Certainly one of the best tracks in the US... if not the world.  B)

Outstanding race there a few weeks ago by the ALMS guys!

Edited by gliebzeit, Aug 26 2012 - 02:42 AM.


#15 Mark Uribe

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Posted Aug 30 2012 - 04:10 PM

Thanks for posting this Rich. :clap2: :notworthy:

Could you, or anyone, please post your season.ini info for this track? Been a while since I had to install a track manually. Thanks in advance. :)

#16 rachet1

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Posted Aug 30 2012 - 05:37 PM

Hi Mark !
here you go :

name=roadam
trackDirectory=roadam
trackShortName=roadam
flag=usaflag
month=5
day=16
numberOfLaps=65
startingGrid=10

Richard(Ratchet):drive:

#17 Burnsy865

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Posted Aug 31 2012 - 03:43 PM

Thanks Richard for posting this and also Mark of course. :hat-tip:

#18 Cheapracer

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Posted Sep 03 2012 - 12:23 PM

View Postrachet1, on Aug 22 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:


Would be nice to have somebody finish it for the CanAm mod. :idea: Hint ! Hint !  


A little story about that ...

The Can Am and '37 cars drove me crazy because I could never get them to behave as properly as they should. The whole point of GPL to me was the feedback, still the sim with easily the best feedback to the driver, sad that the feedback is wrong.  

It's no secret that I was not happy, frustrated and never convinced with the way GPL handled and I was quite outspoken about it and with others spent many years trying to get it right and I haven't driven the most recent mods but I never got it right and neither did others - and that comment doesn't go down very well!  :lol: - my purpose and only want was to get it right, not to insult but insulted they were.

Anyway, after I gave up GPL because of life changes including moving to China, a few years ago I believe I found the holy grail.

I sat back and looked at all I had done with the .exe's and what Dave Kaemmer had done. When you go right through what Kaemmer had covered it's simply incredible the detail he had gone to to simulate real world stuff, from the tyres and suspension rates, roll centers, weight transfer, as well as every single car parameter you can imagine to, believe it or not, such items as the actual real pyshic's value of Earth's gravity (9.80665 m/s2) - amazing and it's all in there.

Anyway, I sat there and figured if DK had done all this developing over many years full time from his earlier work (Indycar etc.), why am I trying to change everything, the foundation must be fundementally right and it must be just some basic values that, with respect, he's *effed* up somewhere. With thousands of values not to mention dynamic values probably in the millions, one can forgive him.

So I got all enthused again and I spent months going through everything I had ever done myself and all the results from the secret mods teams diarys and with a standard 1.2 '67.exe retested and tested and retested minor value mods and found them all a waste of time as I had the first time around and later with the mods groups. - the one's that "work" are of masking value only and not a resolve of the real issue (this is apparent to me because when you drive a real car regardless of what year or it's genre, physics don't change but when you make basic changes in GPL between '67, '37 and Can Am, simple changes such as weight and basic grip levels, the darn vehicle pyhsics changed as well, evidence it just can't be correct).

So then I went even further back and found some very old emails from when only a couple of us were at it, Phil Flack aka Guru, Richard Cooke when he was still humble and shy, me and, hmm forgot! (Paul Thurston and the other Paul probably).

Very early in the piece Guru stumbled across one value in an area we dismissed quickly and it was visited again later by the mods group and again was dismissed but rereading the posts from then (Yahoo Groups), my opinion and one other's, we thought it was a value that showed the only real world change. FWIW we were also the only 2 with real racing experience.

Anyway, I took an .exe and started changing all the values in that area and it showed promise and more promise but still frustratingly couldn't get there.  

So there I was looking at the values and what they did/changed and this will sound wierd, I then scribbled a picture of a shovel, yep a shovel!

Think of a shovel and how it relates to a cars grip; Lets dig the shovel into the ground on a ....

Steep angle with lots of weight and it won't move sideways but you can push the handle over - car has lots of downward grip and the CoG will eventually tip it over the high gripping tyres (the car rolls).  

Medium angle with lots of weight can move sideways with some force and will get deeper requiring more force until it stops - car has good sidways grip and will slide with noticable grip and stop sliding rather quickly.

Medium angle with medium weight can move sideways with some force and with diminishing force gradually comes to a stop - car has good sideways grip and slides to a stop progressively.

Shallow angle and lightweight digs in momentarily and then skims across the top with little force and little resistance - GPL '67 anybody?

These are just 4 loose examples of what I found from just 4 major and 2 more minor tuning values had on GPL's dynamics (they are actually totally variable and not restricted to a set number of results). They were in an area reasonably close to each other, not near the standard values that have been played with for many years and were initially hard to understand how the changes in values would affect the handling (I almost gave up actually as I was going around in circles) but eventually it became clear just how they interacted and also clear to me that they were where DK seemingly (and respectfully) had faulted and what ruined the '67 pyhsics.

I know what 2 of the values specifically do but the other 2 are weird and seem to apply to the CoG and RC's coupling to how it's applied to weighting the tyre dynamically, offering the 'shovel effect' mentioned above.

So with the right shovel i went online for a few races and what a dramatic change, a realistic handling car finally that you can do a whole race with and get punished for real mistakes and rewarded with real driving skills, the joy of drifting through Grande under full control is amazing. Not full control as in arcade type driving either, but control from steering and throttle balance and suddenly tracks like Zandvoort become amazing driver's track. Oh and you haven't lived until you have drifted the entire way around Stavelot!    

Anyway, in my mind I have found the GPL holy grail and believe I can apply it to all the mods in due time (I am darn busy at this point in my life).

But most of all I would like to do a proper '67 once and for all, how would that go down these days? FWIW, a real '67 is actually slower than the original GPL so there's no reason they can't run online together. Generally works out that everything is about 2 seconds slower (I spent as lot of time researching and evaluating true 1967 HP, weights, straight line top speeds and cornering speeds). The "Aliens" would still be easily fastest with the original '67 but mid field and backmarkers could race harder against each other much more consistently and for an entire race in most cases.    

Richard, would you like to actually test a 'real' 1967 Ferrari and report my findings to the forum?

Edited by Cheapracer, Sep 03 2012 - 12:36 PM.


#19 Bernd Nowak

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Posted Sep 03 2012 - 12:45 PM

Sounds interesting Mark!

I hope you can find out what the other 2 settings really do but I can imagine that this is not easy.

Thanks a lot !

#20 delgs

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Posted Sep 03 2012 - 02:09 PM

View PostCheapracer, on Sep 03 2012 - 12:23 PM, said:

View Postrachet1, on Aug 22 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:


Would be nice to have somebody finish it for the CanAm mod. :idea: Hint ! Hint !  



So with the right shovel i went online for a few races and what a dramatic change, a realistic handling car finally that you can do a whole race with and get punished for real mistakes and rewarded with real driving skills, the joy of drifting through Grande under full control is amazing. Not full control as in arcade type driving either, but control from steering and throttle balance and suddenly tracks like Zandvoort become amazing driver's track. Oh and you haven't lived until you have drifted the entire way around Stavelot!    

Anyway, in my mind I have found the GPL holy grail and believe I can apply it to all the mods in due time (I am darn busy at this point in my life).

But most of all I would like to do a proper '67 once and for all, how would that go down these days? FWIW, a real '67 is actually slower than the original GPL so there's no reason they can't run online together. Generally works out that everything is about 2 seconds slower (I spent as lot of time researching and evaluating true 1967 HP, weights, straight line top speeds and cornering speeds). The "Aliens" would still be easily fastest with the original '67 but mid field and backmarkers could race harder against each other much more consistently and for an entire race in most cases.    



That sounds tremendously exciting!




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