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A Better Monza?


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#21 ginetto

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Posted Jun 06 2012 - 05:06 PM

Geez, you're not quite believers aren't you  :D
cambers and elevations are the same between monza and monza 10k ; both curva grande and the 2 lesmos are 2.8 degrees. Only thing that change are the increased number in sections of monza 10k due to its complexity and this brought up those eventuals little change of feeling driving it, like a little different step between camber and not cambered road. But it really is very minor. Monza 10k is an exctract of papy monza on purpose, is not that john Basara didn't have the ability to create a new one form scratch ;)
Look the elevation compare between the 2 and "believe" ;)

Oh, my 2nd picture above is a part of my monza 51 which has the correct layout and you can notice the major differences with the papy one at first sight.  :wave:

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Edited by Ginetto, Jun 06 2012 - 05:10 PM.


#22 one2fwee

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Posted Jun 07 2012 - 06:04 AM

Ah thanks for the explanation - it seems that little things are enough to trick the mind into thinking it is different. Certainly, curva grande especially, feels different to me, even if it is not.

Your 51 monza indeed looks good - it always did seem that the second lesmo was too tight!

#23 gabuck

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Posted Jun 09 2012 - 04:54 AM

View Postbingo, on Jun 01 2012 - 09:19 AM, said:

I have just installed thomas lachele's version of monza 10k.

:shock:  :drool2: :drool:  :artist:

Is there any way of editing monza 10k so that it has the 67 layout?
The current version just looks so dark and grey in comparison to the bright sunshine of 10k, and it is slightly less detailed.

-  :thumbup: Bingo

I had not noticed this but having just looked at both I know what you mean. I think its all the shadows from the trees which makes 'Monza 10K' feel like a sunny Italian afternoon whilst their absence makes 'Monza' feel like Brands Hatch when overcast - despite the blue sky !

Geoff

#24 ildario77

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Posted Apr 17 2014 - 11:19 AM

Hi there. I just found this old thread about a better Monza. Just installed the Monza 1000 km track with Thomas Laechele textures and, well, that's amazing, one of the best tracks ever made for GPL. As said before in this thread, it would be great to have a 5Km Monza track, the regular one, with the same great quality, especially trees and tarmac. Any chance to work on the .dat file to "close" the banking?

#25 Arturo Pereira

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Posted Apr 17 2014 - 07:43 PM

Here is an accurate layout for Monza67. Done long time ago.

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#26 ildario77

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Posted Apr 18 2014 - 06:55 AM

View PostArturo Pereira, on Apr 17 2014 - 07:43 PM, said:

Here is an accurate layout for Monza67. Done long time ago.

Thanks, but this is even older than the one I have installed :) I'm not a "track guy", so I don't know if it is possible to edit the layout of the Monza 10k track to exclude the banking section. That is by far the best version of Monza ever made, and the texture pack by Thomas Laechele makes it even better.

#27 ginetto

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Posted Apr 18 2014 - 12:59 PM

The layout of Monza 10k is totally wrong if you speak about layout.
Is the same exact than Papyrus 1998 version; quite a fantasy track if you allow me, I live 30 miles to the actual site.

The one that Arturo posted is accurate, meaning that is like the real track as it was in 1967.
Ciao! :wave:

#28 Pete Gaimari

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Posted Apr 18 2014 - 09:37 PM

I tried the Monza Art posted. It is different. I found a little trickier to drive.

I know it's just an alpha/beta version, but the AI were comical.

#29 ildario77

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Posted Apr 19 2014 - 01:52 AM

View PostGinetto, on Apr 18 2014 - 12:59 PM, said:

The layout of Monza 10k is totally wrong if you speak about layout.
Is the same exact than Papyrus 1998 version; quite a fantasy track if you allow me, I live 30 miles to the actual site.

The one that Arturo posted is accurate, meaning that is like the real track as it was in 1967.
Ciao! :wave:

My fault, I was talking about graphical impact, more than accuracy of radius, altitude, etc. :) I hate the old blocky trees and Monza 10k, with Laechele's textures, looks so great. Btw, I live 20 minutes from Monza too ;) Ginetto, I see you had the chance to work on the original Monza 10k by John Basara. I'm sure you have enough experience to say if it's possible to edit that track and close the banking section. Thanks a lot. Ciao ;)

#30 leon_90

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Posted Apr 19 2014 - 03:57 AM

Dario, why don't you try Gammaworx's Monza 69-71? It is original Monza without banking but with new textures. While it is a little darker than Monza10k with Laechele's update, it is a lot better than any other update on default Monza. You'll find it in the "files" section, 'track addons' if I remember correctly ;)

#31 ginetto

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Posted Apr 19 2014 - 04:37 AM

View Postildario77, on Apr 19 2014 - 01:52 AM, said:

... Btw, I live 20 minutes from Monza too ;)....
:cheers:

#32 ildario77

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Posted Apr 19 2014 - 05:53 AM

View Postleon_90, on Apr 19 2014 - 03:57 AM, said:

Dario, why don't you try Gammaworx's Monza 69-71? It is original Monza without banking but with new textures. While it is a little darker than Monza10k with Laechele's update, it is a lot better than any other update on default Monza. You'll find it in the "files" section, 'track addons' if I remember correctly ;)

Thank you, tried it some days ago. A very good job, but I didnt fall in love with it ;) Trees are still blocky, especially in the Serraglio section, tarmac hasnt shadows and the horizon is not so realistic. Still dreaming of a Basara/Laechele version without the banking (I love Monza banking, but unless I use the GT67 Mod or a fictional carset from the "Grand Prix" movie, is not historically accurate with post-1961 Formula One cars).

EDIT: It seems that Monza 10k is two tracks in one. If you guys have some suggestions about an editor I could try to use (I'm a complete beginner...), you're welcome :)

Edited by ildario77, Apr 19 2014 - 06:36 AM.


#33 jgf

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Posted Apr 19 2014 - 02:00 PM

View Postildario77, on Apr 19 2014 - 05:53 AM, said:

...
EDIT: It seems that Monza 10k is two tracks in one. If you guys have some suggestions about an editor I could try to use (I'm a complete beginner...), you're welcome :)

A daunting task.  Track editing tools for GPL are primitive compared to those for newer sims, and there is much more involved than just redirecting the racing line.  I know little of track creation/editing but once proposed removing the chicane from Suzuka (the real track existed twenty years without it) and was told it would be about as easy to create a new Suzuka from scratch.

#34 ildario77

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Posted Apr 20 2014 - 09:37 AM

Funny (semi) off-topic: just like Sarti in the movie "Grand Prix" I had a hard time on the Monza banking... Ouch...

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#35 Pete Gaimari

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Posted Apr 20 2014 - 10:08 AM

Did an exhaust pipe drop in front of your car too?

#36 ildario77

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Posted Apr 20 2014 - 10:17 AM

View PostPete Gaimari, on Apr 20 2014 - 10:08 AM, said:

Did an exhaust pipe drop in front of your car too?

Haha, nope. Ehm, cough, suspension failure... :rolleyes:

#37 221teddy

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Posted Apr 03 2019 - 01:32 AM

This is a quite old post. Nevertheless I want to give some comments about the discussion above since I like very much the different conversions of the Monza track and they are part of my absolute favourite tracks for GPL .

- by driving on the different versions of this track it is clear that the geometry of the standard part of the 10k and 1000km variants are identical to the standard Papyrus version. There are only differences in the graphical quality of the objects and textures on both sides of the race track. The same for the newer Monza Junior variant of the Monza track. The quality of the available graphical updates especially by Thomas Laechele are outstanding.That there was some disagreement on the identity of the track geometries shows to me how important the quality of the textures is for a perfect immersion. The over all impression becomes quite different even though the track physics and geometry remain unchanged. That's the reason why I am not using the Monza67 conversion mentioned above. The differences in driving on this track are quite minor to the Papy version and I see no reason why this track should be closer to the reality. The overal impression is not convincing due to the odd environment and the textures. Probably this project was never brought to an end.
- although Ginetto in my opinion is a track design god I would disagree with him that the Papy and 10k/1000km conversions of the Monza track are "fantasy tracks" displaying a completely wrong layout (#27). I have no information about the real geometry in the 50's/60's but if you compare onboard movies of the track to the GPL conversions in my opinion the simulation looks quite convincing. In the following I will provide some youtube links where the historical layout can be seen very well:

- of course the Monza racing scenes of "Grand Prix" displaying the 10k track in its 1966 shape. Spectacular onboard scenes.

https://www.youtube....h?v=7HA71tYl640

- in the very bad Grand Prix remake „Formula 1 nell'inferno del grand prix“ there are displayed some training laps at the standard Monza track (min. 32 onwards) probably in the year 1968 or 1969. The resolulion (and the overall quality) of the movie is low, nevertheless the layout of the curva grande, the Lesmos and the Parabolica can be seen clearly.


https://www.youtube....h?v=7HA71tYl640

- There is a onboard movie available displaying two training laps driven by Jaques Laffite in 1978. Of course in this era the original track is yet destroyed by 3 chicanes and there are much mor guardrails. But the layout of the curva grande, the Lesmos and the Parabolica was unchanged.

https://www.youtube....h?v=iNEJfCuHYKo

- if you want to compare the 10k/1000km oval with reality there are several movies available displaying its status in 1957 (onboard, quite new state) and nowadays (e.g. a biking tour, representing the status of the oval  after its closure round about 1970 with remains of the 1000km chicanes)


https://www.youtube....h?v=-P-I6SzMmlo


https://www.youtube....h?v=KuB0ciS_HW4

So looking at these movies I think the layout of the Papy, 10k, and 1000km conversions of the track look quite convincing and accurate to me. The only real difference I can recognize is that the vegetation in reality was even more dense and closer to the race track especially at the Lesmos.


But guys: compared to modern race tracks. What a difference! These were real race tracks.....

#38 ginetto

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Posted Apr 03 2019 - 05:04 AM

Work in Progress... :construct:

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#39 JMF

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Posted Apr 03 2019 - 05:33 AM

View Post221teddy, on Apr 03 2019 - 01:32 AM, said:

- by driving on the different versions of this track it is clear that the geometry of the standard part of the 10k and 1000km variants are identical to the standard Papyrus version.

Are you sure about that? I've always wondered if the same sections of track are slightly different. Setups I used for Papy's original needed some slight adjustments for the road course sections of 10k and 1000km. I'd also drive the road course section of 10k and 100 km slightly different than I would Papy's original. Maybe someday, I'll look at the track sections in one of the editing programs to see if they are identical.

#40 JonnyA

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Posted Apr 03 2019 - 05:51 AM

View Postginetto, on Apr 03 2019 - 05:04 AM, said:

Work in Progress... :construct:

Looks very good..!




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