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Questions For Building Gpl 65 2.0.2 Complete Installer


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#16 Bernd Nowak

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Posted Aug 18 2012 - 12:21 PM

Oh, and I checked a standard installation and had no problems with rasteriser v2 and the replays posted here. Full carset. So a big  :thumbup: Martin.

#17 Pete Gaimari

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Posted Aug 18 2012 - 01:04 PM

Please leave the ride height mod an option after install. I'm sure i'm not the only one that feels it looks a bit too high compared to the real cars.

#18 Bernd Nowak

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Posted Aug 18 2012 - 02:19 PM

Pete, it's left out at the moment. I copy the old archive to the repository but it's not installed, select-able at run-time of the installer. The needed fixes from Martin are included as are the original installer choices from David Wright.

#19 MECH

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Posted Aug 18 2012 - 02:23 PM

View PostBernd Nowak, on Aug 18 2012 - 12:20 PM, said:

Thanks a lot Martin, I'm sure it's hot at your home too. Will check tomorrow.

About the T73, I would think that 2D helmets would turn it into a T77 too :)
Yeah it's stinking hot overhere  :tumbleweed: :andale:
I'm sweating like hell, think i'll have another :beer:

Edited by MECH, Aug 18 2012 - 02:23 PM.


#20 maddog

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Posted Aug 21 2012 - 12:06 PM

View PostPete Gaimari, on Aug 18 2012 - 01:04 PM, said:

Please leave the ride height mod an option after install. I'm sure i'm not the only one that feels it looks a bit too high compared to the real cars.
Regarding their height, or specifically, the ground clearance of F1 cars back in 1965 - it seems most latter day racers believe they were ground huggers.  But 9 out of every 10 photo's you see, show the cars either braking, or turning, so of coarse, their noses will look low!  And with over 3 decades of ground hugging ground effects cars since, it's no surprise to me most modern GPL racers, expect to see ours as low, ground hugging 65's and 67's. But As someone who saw these cars race when they were new, I can confirm as an eye witness, that they did not race at 1 inch,( GPL beta ) or the 21/2 - 6.35cm( GPL & 65mod ) ours came with.

Now obviously guys, if a low slung 65 looks better to race with, that's great.  It's mostly because I was there, and want to relive the entire spectacle, of F1 in the 60's, that 3 or 4 inches makes a major difference to me.  But I'm also trying to set the record straight, for those fans amongst us, who have only pictures, or perhaps modern historic races to judge from.

Attached Files


Edited by maddog, Aug 21 2012 - 12:07 PM.


#21 Pete Gaimari

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Posted Aug 21 2012 - 06:47 PM

You might notice my age. I was there too. I think when the half shafts are level the car is right. Except maybe at Nurburgring.

#22 Lee200

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Posted Aug 21 2012 - 07:54 PM

View PostPete Gaimari, on Aug 21 2012 - 06:47 PM, said:

You might notice my age. I was there too. I think when the half shafts are level the car is right. Except maybe at Nurburgring.

That's what the old GPL Foolishness website says too for the '67 ride heights.

http://www.btinterne...nnini/Cars.html

That old rule of thumb for setting the ride height certainly looks right doesn't it?

In the years since, we've gotten a bit smarter on what GPL actually uses for a "natural" ride height by examining the code.  The '67 Braby is 4.00", the Honda is 3.15", and the rest are 3.77".  So GPL Foolishness was pretty darn close except for the BRM which may have been a typo.

#23 maddog

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Posted Aug 22 2012 - 06:12 AM

I grant a valid point of view, to anyone who has an objective, rather than a subjective point of view, to height. :)  As to 67 ride height - is that the default '67 ride height you're suggesting Lee ?  I'd imagine it's the Players default car height.  The 67 Ai are a lot higher - why was this done ?  I will admit, both the 65 and 67 Ai look close enough to reality, out of the box.

And that's an interesting website, mentioned above, well worth a visit - at first glance the figures look very convincing.  But . . . the websites ride height figures, were measured at the height at which the axle halves were level, and not at their minimum, which I think is much lower.  And I also noticed, the height of each Ai is shown, as slightly lower than the player chassis?  They actually install slightly higher, and the ride height mod was unable to fix this. :hmm:   I suggest everyone jump onboard, and look for themselves?

I'd also recommend everyone install the ride height mod, and look at the PLAYER rear axles, when driving at minimum ride height - that's the height front runners usually race with.:unsure:   The patch is easily reversable by simply, copying your cars/65lite & 65full folders before you start, and renaming them.  If you don't like the new patched ground clearance, so be it - remove and restore/unname the originals. :)

Edited by maddog, Aug 22 2012 - 06:16 AM.


#24 Lee200

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Posted Aug 22 2012 - 07:17 AM

Hi Martin,

Uh, I've done so many patches and mods that I'm not sure what the original default setup ride heights were.  I show for the '67 Cooper, it is 2.50" front/2.75" rear, but that may be wrong.

The AI ride height is controlled not only by the .exe, but the gpl_ai.ini file.  In the .ini, there is the alt_accel_k1 setting which is set for 0.070000 meters.  Increasing the value raises the ride height and vice versa.  For the upcoming CanAm mod, I increased the value to .15 because the AI were bottoming out due to down force and I know of no other way to control it.

I think there may be some confusion here about visual ride height versus physics ride height.  The '65 Ride Height patch by MECH only affects the visual ride height as Martin apparently adjusted the .3DO file settings to raise the chassis.  The patch does not affect the physics at all.

I'll try to make this explanation as short as possible, but it is a complex subject.

Visually, the car height is mainly controlled by the car .3DO file.  All the vertices or points that define the 3D model are defined in relation to their distance from the origin in 3D space.  The origin has the coordinates of 0,0,0 and is fixed vertically at a specific point in 3D space above ground level.  The vertical distance from the origin to the bottom of the chassis is also specified so the difference between the two is the visual ride height.

From the physics standpoint, the chassis uses a rigid body (which I won't go into now) whose Center of Gravity/Mass is set at a specific distance above ground level.  There is also a setting which specifies the vertical distance from the CofG to the bottom of the chassis.  So the difference between the two is the physics' "natural ride height".  The values I gave in my previous post are the natural ride heights based on the physics settings.

You can imagine that to give the best effect, the visual origin in the .3DO file and CofG point in the physics should be aligned so that the car visually moves/spins about the same point in space that the chassis rigid body does.  In fact for the '67 cars, this is true.  This was no accident and the Papy design team purposely made the two points coincide in the code.  As they did this, they also positioned the half shafts in 3D space so that they were visually level when the car was set at it's` natural ride height.

When you adjust the ride height in the setup menu, both the visual origin and the physics CofG heights are changed together so that they always stay aligned.

Now having said all that, I think over time our mods have not always made sure that the visual origin and the CofG heights or the chassis heights have matched.  Small differences usually aren't discernable, but apparently that is what you're seeing with the '65 mod.

Edited by Lee200, Aug 22 2012 - 07:53 AM.


#25 maddog

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Posted Aug 27 2012 - 02:46 PM

I've returned with an update . . . Our discussion here about realism, has made me re-examine Ai ride height properties.  Until now, I've been unable to make them race at an equal height, to us - the player.  A realistic player height, has automatically raised them ready for a more bumpy track. :woot:

A fix has been discovered - for the first time, the player and Ai, will be able to race with the same height !  With Bernds help, this realistic option has been added to his new, 65mod installer.  :) :)

#26 Int

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Posted Sep 03 2012 - 11:47 AM

Hello all!

I was wondering...   :unsure:

I haven't checked the new installer yet (thanks a lot Bernd Nowak!) but if the car updates have been used "as they are", the "objects in the mirrors" (external view!) for the Honda has been updated to a more "clean and clear" texture... But to keep a certain "homogeneity" in the mod 65, all the cars should have the same "objects in the mirrors" as the Honda (in my opinion), OR; the Honda should use the old texture back (the "dirty gray" one, lol).
Another solution would be that someone is able to create all new "objects in the mirrors" textures, for all the cars, but more detailed this time (with the windshield, etc...), like it has been done with the cars 67. The problem is, we could have some "incompatibilities" in this case, because some cars will use another colour (with the blue and green Brabhams for example) but the same "objects in the mirrors" file! Maybe it's possible to find a "generic" view angle for those cars, to avoid that we can see the car's colour in the mirrors? Or is it possible to link those "objects in the mirrors" files to a specific colour of a car?


For the installer, we could have 2 new boxes to check (or not) during the installation...
- No boxes checked, the default texture will be used (the gray one)
- 1 box to check for the "clean and clear" textures as the one used with the Honda.
- 1 box to check for the new and more "detailed" textures (still to be created).


It was just my suggestions...  ;)


Intruder

Edited by Int, Sep 03 2012 - 11:59 AM.


#27 gliebzeit

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Posted Sep 03 2012 - 09:58 PM

View Postmaddog, on Aug 27 2012 - 02:46 PM, said:

I've returned with an update . . . Our discussion here about realism, has made me re-examine Ai ride height properties.  Until now, I've been unable to make them race at an equal height, to us - the player.  A realistic player height, has automatically raised them ready for a more bumpy track. :woot:

A fix has been discovered - for the first time, the player and Ai, will be able to race with the same height !  With Bernds help, this realistic option has been added to his new, 65mod installer.  :) :)


maddog, would you care to elucidate your findings about how your 'fix' is implemented?  Is this fix capable of being applied to other Mods according to their respective requirements?

#28 Bernd Nowak

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Posted Sep 05 2012 - 03:37 AM

View PostInt, on Sep 03 2012 - 11:47 AM, said:

Hello all!

I was wondering...   :unsure:

I haven't checked the new installer yet (thanks a lot Bernd Nowak!) but if the car updates have been used "as they are", the "objects in the mirrors" (external view!) for the Honda has been updated to a more "clean and clear" texture... But to keep a certain "homogeneity" in the mod 65, all the cars should have the same "objects in the mirrors" as the Honda (in my opinion), OR; the Honda should use the old texture back (the "dirty gray" one, lol).
Another solution would be that someone is able to create all new "objects in the mirrors" textures, for all the cars, but more detailed this time (with the windshield, etc...), like it has been done with the cars 67. The problem is, we could have some "incompatibilities" in this case, because some cars will use another colour (with the blue and green Brabhams for example) but the same "objects in the mirrors" file! Maybe it's possible to find a "generic" view angle for those cars, to avoid that we can see the car's colour in the mirrors? Or is it possible to link those "objects in the mirrors" files to a specific colour of a car?


For the installer, we could have 2 new boxes to check (or not) during the installation...
- No boxes checked, the default texture will be used (the gray one)
- 1 box to check for the "clean and clear" textures as the one used with the Honda.
- 1 box to check for the new and more "detailed" textures (still to be created).


It was just my suggestions...  ;)


Intruder

Need to check this intruder. But I have only compiled all the official updates into this. Remy pointed me already to another thread with some more 65 cars (liveries) and I could not integrate them that easy without spending a lot of hours checking whether they are compatible with the other default car options offered by the original 65mod installer done by David Wright.

If someone would give me the files I would check if it's possible to integrate them.

Any hints are welcome!

#29 maddog

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Posted Sep 08 2012 - 03:13 PM

View Postgliebzeit, on Sep 03 2012 - 09:58 PM, said:

maddog, would you care to elucidate your findings about how your 'fix' is implemented?  Is this fix capable of being applied to other Mods according to their respective requirements?

The Ai fix was a simple matter of changing a figure, in the .xml coding GPL uses.  So it should be possible to apply the same change to other Mods, if that is considered beneficial to them.  

You may judge for yourself, the difference in height between Player and Ai, in the various Mods we have, to date.  Where there's a difference, I'd suggest a compromise had to be made, with Player low, and Ai high.  This can now be fixed, but would require the help of an expert modeller, to attain a proper level. :dont_mention:

I'm currently studying the 67 GPLEA cars.  They were an inspiration for everything that has since followed.  Would a change there be considered sacrilegious - they run very low to the ground online?

Given to me as a boy, was a working blueprint of the F1 RA-301, by the man responsible for it's development, during the 1968 season.  My Father was a good friend of his.  I've only now scannered it for the first time - it's an ultimate tool with which to look at this ride height issue.  It's providing interesting results.  I'll be presenting my findings to our talented modders, in the next few days.  Our quest is to continue to improve the realism, of the cars we race. :yeah:




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