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#21 DaveDell

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Posted Apr 30 2019 - 04:00 AM

Hi.

Well I'm in the same boat mate. Coming to GPL literally for the first time since 02'.

D/L'd a copy of Demo2004 and started driving. Give it some seat time, relax, try some tracks, build your pace, enjoy.

Dave

#22 guiporsche

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Posted Apr 30 2019 - 04:38 AM

Random piece of advice, based on my personal experience.

The secret to enjoying GPL is four wheel drift cornering. When I bought GPL, back in 2001 or 2002 I believe, I gave up on it because I was driving the cars as in the Geoff Crammond Grand Prix series, that is, like a modern F1 car, which are aero platforms with minimal suspension movement that allow one to downshift and brake right deep inside the apex of the corner. Of course, doing that in GPL is a recipe to cuddle the armco.
Crammond's games were pretty much all I knew and my GPL copy was the budget one without the nice manual where 4 wheel drift was explained, so the whole concept was alien to me (I had no internet & was a young lad :) ).

At first it's easier said than done, but to take most turns one has to break well in advance of the turn (or go off the throttle), and then induce oversteer by unbalancing the car with steering and going off-on the throttle, basically throwing the car sideways around the apex, almost like a rally car (but for the Scandinavian flicks!)  Once I realized the logic of it I never looked back.
Start with Monza and only move on once you can do say, three laps without crashing. Then move on maybe to a relatively flat track like Silverstone, or a short one like Monaco. Once you feel confident, then try tracks with plenty of adverse camber turns like the Nurburgring or Watkins Glen.

Edited by guiporsche, Apr 30 2019 - 04:43 AM.


#23 Pete Gaimari

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Posted Apr 30 2019 - 10:46 AM

Well, I sure don't drive that way. I trial brake all the way to the apex with RF braking. Just like Jim Clark did.

It sounds like you're using a drifting style. The real 67 F1 cars never would have stayed together with that kind of abuse.

#24 Spadowski

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Posted Apr 30 2019 - 02:00 PM

The advice I was given when I started in GPL with a wheel was "Do 50 laps at Monza." I thought it was madness but I did it, and it was absolutely right.

#25 leon_90

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Posted Apr 30 2019 - 02:14 PM

View PostPete Gaimari, on Apr 30 2019 - 10:46 AM, said:

Well, I sure don't drive that way. I trial brake all the way to the apex with RF braking. Just like Jim Clark did.

It sounds like you're using a drifting style. The real 67 F1 cars never would have stayed together with that kind of abuse.

??

Have you ever seen footage of races from the period Pete?

Attached File  clark_silv.jpg   129.16K   17 downloads

Attached File  amon.jpg   147.98K   21 downloads

#26 Pete Gaimari

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Posted Apr 30 2019 - 02:44 PM

Drifting through a sweeper is not what i'm talking about. I watch Jimmy at Watkins and he wasn't throwing into the turns. He was very smooth.

#27 guiporsche

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Posted Apr 30 2019 - 03:48 PM

I'm a keyboarder (but don't tell anyone ;)),  which makes it easier to be more exuberant. But the four-wheel drifting bit, in its basics, is exactly what's needed in GPL.

Also, I'm most honoured and grateful for seeing my driving style being compared to Jim Clark's, even if not necessarily in the best of the lights :D

Edited by guiporsche, Apr 30 2019 - 03:53 PM.


#28 John Woods

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Posted May 01 2019 - 07:25 AM

Easy to distinguish two very different kinds of drifting.

Drifting a race car, given an appropriate track surface, refers to achieving optimum slip angle for all four tires at the same time.
If one end or the other is not doing this, and the other is, the condition is called oversteer or understeer.

For a description of how Jimmy took a corner, go here:http://srmz.net/inde...=80#entry133966

For a description of how to take a turn old school style, go here:http://srmz.net/inde...showtopic=12701
(Pay special attention to the diagram).


:D

Edited by John Woods, May 01 2019 - 07:31 AM.


#29 Pete Gaimari

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Posted May 01 2019 - 08:03 AM

John........Don't confuse 4 wheel drift with the modern drifting competition. In the modern style the car is thrown into the corner putting it into oversteer and then held there with the throttle. That is not how the 60's F1 cars were driven. When you see pictures of cars in oversteer it's coming off the tuens. Not going into them.

Jimmy used trail braking to set the car up for the turn but he didn't throw the car into the turn. Being a keyboard driver I can now understand why guiporshe used that method. For those of us that use a wheel and pedals it's not needed to throw the car into turns. Never mind watching old videos or pictures. Watch a GPL alien to see how to drive GPL.

GPL cars will turn in quite well with the right setup.

#30 John Woods

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Posted May 01 2019 - 01:39 PM

Given all I've done in my post above is relay along the practically universal definition of a proper 4-wheel drift and linked quotes to Clark, Frere, and Moss...not sure how it is evident I am confused or that my comments are confusing to anyone else.

Applying lock to set up a drift, (have recently come to understand), involves in part steering while braking and, whatever the term used to describe it, throwing or tossing the rear of the car into oversteer and the front into countersteer. Both Moss and Clark refer specifically to this critical element of the drifting technique.

As optimum slip angles were reduced due to improvements in wheels, tires, suspensions, and aero, there was gradually less need to fully toss a car to get it to turn, (or rather, the extent of a "full toss" was reduced over time).



:D

Edited by John Woods, May 01 2019 - 01:54 PM.


#31 Pete Gaimari

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Posted May 01 2019 - 02:06 PM

Show me some videos of 67 F1 cars being thrown into a turn. Not a sweeper but a slower turn. A turn that requires braking and downshifting.

#32 John Woods

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Posted May 01 2019 - 02:11 PM

The #1 Rule of Drifting is: Less is More.
:)

On a flat surface, an ideal neutral steer 4-wheel drift will carry the car on an arc of constant radius.

The driving line with the widest arc possible thru a corner will complete the turn in the least possible time.

However this approach, whether drifting the widest arc or not, also maintains a constant or decelerating speed that results in the same speed or less at exit as at entry.

Therefore, experts like Taruffi, Jenkinson, Moss, Frere, and Clark agree by comparison of their statements the widest arc is not the preferred line.

Instead, they minimize the constant radius symmetrical drift in favor of an asymmetrical line that results in higher velocity at exit.

As Pete, Moss, and Clark specifically note, this also involves trail braking up to the point of entering drift.
:D

Edited by John Woods, May 02 2019 - 09:42 AM.


#33 Pete Gaimari

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Posted May 02 2019 - 09:51 AM

You're still not getting what i'm saying. There are two types of drifting. The 4 wheel drift is done by speed and the whole car moves forward and sideways. I'm sure we all know about it and do it.

Then there's competition drifting. Do you know what that is? It's done by throwing the car into a turn to get it on oversteer and holding that position with the throttle. It's not the fastest way around a track but showy and fun to watch. You don't want to drive GPL that way and you sure don't want to do it with the real 67 F1 cars. It looks like this.
https://www.youtube....h?v=HoTPZYoZGeo

#34 John Woods

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Posted May 02 2019 - 10:36 AM

If you want to condemn "competitive drifting" for being a worthless indulgent pretentious waste then we agree completely.

However, given tires have a built-in optimum slip angle it is certain a capable driver will be able to get all four tires in that position in proper form as consistently described over several years by many authors with expert, (as in World Champion), opinion. As they note, there is no other way to do that other than as they describe.

guiporsche has described his version of a driving technique that is well documented over time. Just guessing, over time he will recognize the advantage of a more subtle approach that will yield quicker lap times with less effort.
:)

We agree and quiporsche is having too much fun.


He'll get over it.


Not!
:D

Edited by John Woods, May 03 2019 - 07:17 AM.


#35 Pete Gaimari

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Posted May 02 2019 - 11:31 AM

Ok, are we done. ;)

#36 guiporsche

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Posted May 02 2019 - 01:21 PM

That sums it up really, and I can assure you of that: I have been having way too much fun with GPL :D
And lesson taken, I also promise to behave more subtly and methodically in the race track!

PS: Really appreciate the link to the scans of P. Frère's 'On the Starting Grid'!

Edited by guiporsche, May 02 2019 - 01:29 PM.


#37 John Woods

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Posted May 02 2019 - 05:04 PM

Until next time.
:)



An Irishman walked out of a bar...
:D

Edited by John Woods, May 03 2019 - 07:31 AM.


#38 dario

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Posted May 09 2019 - 03:50 AM

View PostJohn Woods, on May 01 2019 - 02:11 PM, said:

The #1 Rule of Drifting is: Less is More.
:)

On a flat surface, an ideal neutral steer 4-wheel drift will carry the car on an arc of constant radius.



Exactly!

And that is the main reason why Sebastian Loeb outclassed the likes of Makkinen, Sainz, Macrae, Burns, Gronholm etc.. From the word go, and never looked back.

Its amazing how the whole generation of drivers just dissapeared only because they were all flicking the car way to much sideways.

Edited by dario, May 09 2019 - 03:50 AM.


#39 Old Simmer

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Posted May 14 2019 - 02:33 PM

Aaron:

"Okie" as in Oklahoma?

If so, where? I'm in the eastern part of OK in a town named "Poteau".

Just curious.

Old Simmer
aka Andre





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