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#91 Saiph

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Posted Apr 02 2017 - 02:41 PM

View Postginetto, on Apr 02 2017 - 11:39 AM, said:

And empty the tank! :)

(But not completely. It's a bit slow pushing the thing around the track! :P ;) :D About 5 - 8 gals is about ideal I find. 1 - 2 laps to get the tyres warm, then go for a quick lap.)

#92 JonnyA

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Posted Apr 02 2017 - 02:49 PM

Pippen, as an almost-average driver, my suggestion is that you make adjustments from the default set-up in the following order:

Gearing
As already discussed by much wiser heads than mine, getting your gearing right is the most important way to improve your lap time.

Tyre Pressure
For 1967 cars, the ideal is 24 PSI on the fronts, 26 PSI on the rears. You will find that as you get faster, the tyre pressures will increase (due to higher temperatures generated) and so it is important to go back every once in a while and make sure the pressures are still correct.

Brake Bias
As already noted, your brakes are most effective when the bias is set so all four wheels lock more or less simultaneously. However, I find that it can be very difficult to trail brake sometimes if the bias is too low. Increasing it by a couple of % can make trail braking much easier, and I find what I lose in the braking I can gain back through smooth, high-speed corner entry.

With these three basics covered, you really need to be confident you are pushing the car hard before you change anything else. You should know the circuit inside out and be able to literally drive laps with your eyes closed, replaying them in your head to see where you may be losing time. Only then should you think about making other changes...

Differential
After a lot of reading and playing around with differentials in GPL, I have reached the conclusion I'm not a good enough driver to feel exactly what difference the differential makes. After a lot of trial and error, I have boiled it down to this: adding more clutches makes the car want to turn more, and taking them away makes it more stable. I know that a lot of much faster drivers than me will tell you this is a gross over-simplification, but I find it works for me. If it feels like I'm really having to work to get the car turned into the corners, I add a clutch. And if it feels like the car is unsettled or twitchy, I take one away.

Spring Rate
Most default set-ups feel too hard for me, like they are designed to make the car super-reactive but I'm not good enough to take advantage. I find reducing both front and rear spring rate by 5 or 10% can sometimes make a car much easier to handle, and give me extra grip too.

Roll Bars
John just explained these really clearly. I used to play around with them a lot, but now I rarely touch them. One thing I did do, when I was learning GPL and found it really hard to provoke a clean four-wheel drift, was increase the rear roll bar about 20%. This made the car a little slower, but made it much easier to drift, which helped me learn.

Toe In
Some default setups have negative toe-in, i.e. toe-out, which makes the car reactive and quick to react to steering inputs. I find this feels too twitchy, so I always set it to around +0.01, or at least 0.

...and after all that, check the tyre pressures again, and then just drive as many laps as you can. Good luck.

#93 Michkov

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Posted Apr 02 2017 - 03:08 PM

Are you still using keyboard controls? Breaks are well below their maximum stopping power with keyboard. I remember they hardly lock a wheel when fully engaged on keyboard.

#94 Pippen

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Posted Apr 02 2017 - 03:21 PM

So I changed the steering ratio from 16:1 to 20:1 and well now it's 1:30,27 in Monza. :) Where do I find the anti roll bars in the setup menu? Also: What does brake bias mean? I just can modify the "front brake bias", by default 59. If I modify it to 50 the car breaks to the right if I break. But I still have to break like 50m before others brake....

I didn't care about gearing, but it might be time....

I still use the keyboard, maybe that's the reason for soft brakes?

Anyways, thx for all the help and info, it's just fun to squeeze all those 1/100sec. out of a course. :)

Edited by Pippen, Apr 02 2017 - 03:25 PM.


#95 JonnyA

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Posted Apr 02 2017 - 03:33 PM

Pippen, the roll bars are called Roll Bar Stiffness and are just under Toe In for the front and rear on the Suspension set-up page.

Brake bias is called Front Brake Bias. At 50%, as you find, the car will try to pull to the side when you brake. But at 59% for a 1967 car, you are not applying maximum braking effort, although the car will be easier to control.

Please remember the AI braking does not use the same physics that apply to you. It is set by a value called "braking_efficiency_coeff" at the very bottom of the file called (I think) gpla67.ini, which is in the top-level GPL folder. I find the default braking effectiveness for the AI is much too high - try reducing it by 0.1 and see if the AI are closer to what you find possible. But remember, this slows the AI lap times down, so don't use it as an excuse to stop trying to go faster!

By the way, when I mentioned Toe In earlier, I meant front Toe In, not rear, which should always be positive.

#96 Pippen

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Posted Apr 02 2017 - 04:37 PM

View PostJonnyA, on Apr 02 2017 - 03:33 PM, said:

Brake bias is called Front Brake Bias. At 50%, as you find, the car will try to pull to the side when you brake.

Can one neutralize this effect? If I brake the car is pulling to the side and usually I can't hold it. There must be some antidote to that or anything below 55%'d be useless.

#97 John Woods

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Posted Apr 02 2017 - 05:07 PM

View PostPippen, on Apr 02 2017 - 04:37 PM, said:

View PostJonnyA, on Apr 02 2017 - 03:33 PM, said:

Brake bias is called Front Brake Bias. At 50%, as you find, the car will try to pull to the side when you brake.

Can one neutralize this effect? If I brake the car is pulling to the side and usually I can't hold it. There must be some antidote to that or anything below 55%'d be useless.

So?
:)

Increase front brake bias and see if wandering is reduced.
What works for you is the best choice.

Anything under 62 percent front or so, my preference is 58, but I don't use brakes alone to stop the car and get off of them as quickly as possible.
Other more modern style drivers seem to prefer very hard braking very late into a corner.

Just another guess, however, probably soften the front and stiffen the rear to reduce wandering, but if that's not it, then its the opposite.
:D

Have you read thru the GPL Addicts setup instructions, Jim Pearson's Driving School, visited the Eagle Woman site or some of the other Driving School sites you can find on gpllinks?

Also, thinking keyboard users would be happier with a suspension that is not as quick as it is possible to achieve?
Both the differential and shocks vary the speed at which the suspension reacts.
An 85/30 diff is slower than 15/85.
1/1 shocks are slower than 5/5.

If not already, set latency slider in game options menu full to right (100%).
Test and if not happy slide one click to left and test again.
This might also be cause of wandering under braking.

BTW, ginetto's hint to reduce fuel weight is probably the best one yet over any change to a default setup for getting lap time down a bunch.

Edited by John Woods, Apr 02 2017 - 05:30 PM.


#98 Michkov

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Posted Apr 02 2017 - 05:16 PM

View PostPippen, on Apr 02 2017 - 04:37 PM, said:

View PostJonnyA, on Apr 02 2017 - 03:33 PM, said:

Brake bias is called Front Brake Bias. At 50%, as you find, the car will try to pull to the side when you brake.

Can one neutralize this effect? If I brake the car is pulling to the side and usually I can't hold it. There must be some antidote to that or anything below 55%'d be useless.

Your foot, it's usually done with modulating the pressure on the brake. Keyboard is sadly only brake on or off, thats why they are weak on purpose with KB controls.

Brake bias adjusts the amount of brake force per axel. So 55% means 55% of the braking force is going to the front wheels, while the remaining 45% is applied at the rear.
Now what generally happens when you go to the extremes with this setting is the axle locking up under brakes. For the front this means front tyres locking for high numbers which will lead to you understeering off the road. Or the rear locking up which usually means snap oversteer as the rear tyres stop rotating sending your car into a spin. I suggest you try to run both extreme ends just to see what it does to the car.

The ideal break bias lets you brake with all 4 tyres locking at the same time. Best place to try is the S/F straight at Monza, jump on the brakes and look which tyres stop spinning first. Fronts, go back a tick, rears go foreward. To be safe I usually run a tick or two too much foreward BB as locked fronts are easier to correct than locking rears.

Later you can use the BB to help you tune the turn in of the car, but that comes with the ability to modulate brake pressure.

#99 PTRACER

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Posted Apr 02 2017 - 05:24 PM

I feel like I wrote this post on the first page for absolutely nothing.

View PostPTRACER, on Mar 06 2017 - 08:17 PM, said:

I was pretty good at keyboard driving back in the day. The last time I did a fast keyboard lap at Monza was in 2003, when I did a 1:31.6. I'm sure I would be faster now as I went over a second faster than the GPLRank benchmark for Silverstone just two years ago.

Anyway, the key to driving fast with keyboard is to not make "big" movements. Very smooth driving, keeping the car as straight as possible under braking and acceleration is important. So when you're braking for a corner, you want to be using your left and right steering keys to keep the car straight, otherwise the game will reduce the effectiveness of the braking so the tyres don't lock up. During cornering, you shouldn't hold the steering key down all the way, but 'feather it' around the corner. If you have to use full steering lock you've gone in too fast.

On some circuits, like Silverstone, braking deep into the corners is actually advantageous because the car starts to turn for you and you get better corner entry speed. I'd say not to try these things yet until you get more experienced. Just don't be too fast into the apexes and be very, very smooth. Your laptimes will come down for sure.

About setups - changing too much from the default is not a good idea. The setups you find online are for wheel setups and they will be too loose, so you'll end up being slower. All you can do from the default is reduce the ride height, make sure the tire pressures are equal and keep to either 55% or 56% brake bias.


#100 John Woods

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Posted Apr 02 2017 - 06:10 PM

Wandering under hard acceleration could maybe also be caused by too low roll bar settings compared to shock setting or too much rebound or by incorrect toe settings?

:)

Edited by John Woods, Apr 05 2017 - 08:00 AM.


#101 Pippen

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Posted Apr 18 2017 - 05:38 PM

Did it. :)

19:12
26:93
18:60
25:32
1:29,97

Basically just the standard setup and some gear ratio changes...and a lot of laps and patience :). I think if I try around with the setup more I could come into the region of AM who once drove 1:29,73 (but with a setup I cannot handle myself), but I would be stunned if the keyboard WR would be below 1:29,50. Isn't there any list of keyboard drivers and the lap times in GPL?

#102 JMF

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Posted Apr 18 2017 - 07:03 PM

On GPLRank, when I use "multiple choice hell" and select keyboard for steering method, monza 1967 for track, and gpl67 for cars, it shows these top 5 times.

  
1    1:26.887 GPLRAtest   
2       1:27.191 kenz
3    1:27.248 guinet bruno  
4    1:27.414 CLELLIE
5    1:27.435 Carlos Alberto de Matos

Edited by JMF, Apr 18 2017 - 07:08 PM.


#103 Pippen

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Posted Apr 18 2017 - 07:40 PM

Is this verified by video file? No cheats? I cannot believe that, not 3s faster than me....

e.g. GPLRAtest says: steering method: keyboard, brake: left foot..what does left foot mean? I just break with my keys on my keyboard...no left foot there.

Edited by Pippen, Apr 18 2017 - 07:45 PM.


#104 Pete Gaimari

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Posted Apr 18 2017 - 08:27 PM

Why don't you try some other tracks? Monaco and Nurburgring should keep you busy. Don't look up what others are doing at those tracks. Just do your best and post it.

Then we'll give you the bad news. ;)

#105 Michkov

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Posted Apr 18 2017 - 11:42 PM

Congrats

View PostPippen, on Apr 18 2017 - 05:38 PM, said:

...and a lot of laps and patience

Looks like you found the secret to quick laptimes ;)




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