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#81 John Woods

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Posted Mar 29 2017 - 09:05 AM

Yes Pete I agree completely.
Best results are by tuning the trans to the track.

The SA65 optimum ratio utility is a good start, then get on track.

Have found with the 67 Lotus best results seem to be with about 1,000 RPM drop when shifting up, so only refer to SA65 occasionally to see if there are any big errors in my best guess application of theory.

Lesmos again?
:D

With SA65 a preferred gear for a specific turn can be set and the rest checked/adjusted to yield optimum.
Plus it would be most helpful when top speed is not the max possible, like Monza or Spa, but when top end is much less, like Monaco.

Edited by John Woods, Mar 29 2017 - 09:25 AM.


#82 Pete Gaimari

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Posted Mar 29 2017 - 09:06 AM

Pippen..........Yes, over-reving by not lifting the throttle during upshifts can blow the motor over time. It accumulates and will blow at some point. My thought is that you might not be doing that, because you say you're shifting at 8000 rpm. I shift at 9000 rpm in the Lotus, but i'm very careful with my shifting. I don't think you can over-rev the DFV by shifting at 8000rpm even if you are speedshifting.

You might be downshifting too early and that's when you might be doing damage. Don't use the motor for braking. Use the brakes. It's very easy to check if you're over-reving the motor. You have a tell tale needle on the tach. The red one. At the end of the race it shouldn't be over 9000 rpm. Ever!

Edited by Pete Gaimari, Mar 29 2017 - 09:08 AM.


#83 Pippen

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Posted Mar 29 2017 - 09:08 AM

View PostSaiph, on Mar 29 2017 - 08:54 AM, said:


If you shift up gears in GPL without releasing the throttle, you're doing what's called "speedshifting". As you do it, you'll probably hear the engine revs briefly go up to a much higher pitch (over-revving), before the higher gear engages. IMHO it sounds awful, and is very unrealistic. Some people don't mind that, but if you're using any of GPL's realistic modes it's likely you'll blow the engine before the end of a race due to the constant over-revving.

What you need to do is briefly take your finger off the throttle key as you're making the shift. It'll take some practice to get the timing right, but it's something I learned to do over a couple of months when I was first driving GPL with my 2-button joystick.

Don't u lose time with normal shifting in comparison to speedshifting? (and , yeah, it sounds strange if you speedshift^^). I'll definitely try, because after reading the posts here I believe now that my speedshifting caused all my engine failures.

#84 Pete Gaimari

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Posted Mar 29 2017 - 09:29 AM

You lose more time by shifting at 8000 rpm. You'd be faster to shift at 9000 rpm, but not speedshifting.

#85 John Woods

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Posted Mar 29 2017 - 09:49 AM

View PostPippen, on Mar 29 2017 - 09:08 AM, said:

I believe now that my speedshifting caused all my engine failures.

Shifting when the drivetrain is loaded up with torque at low RPM whether speedshifting or not can also cause failures, usually camshafts or pistons. So it might be 8K shifts are causing some issues also.

The most stress on a motor is low rpm stress, as when going up a hill in too tall a gear.

When the drivetrain gets loaded up with torque it has to go somewhere.
Great when the tires are the path of least resistance.
Not so good when least resistance is a cam lobe.

My theory is to shift just beyond the point where the torque curve falls off, so torque has lessening loading up effect and horsepower can maintain momentum...closer to 9200rpm with the Lotus.

However, a car can be carried on a proper racing line with no stress.
That is the point of a racing line...to be the line of least resistance between any two points on opposite sides of a turn.
Average speed gets you there, so shifting is not the key to faster laps.
Just my opinion.
Its important but not as critical as other factors like a proper line.

Edited by John Woods, Mar 29 2017 - 04:24 PM.


#86 John Woods

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Posted Mar 30 2017 - 08:02 AM

Wandering around My Documents searching for something else entirely found this saved from RSC.
Sorry only have first page.
:)

#87 Pippen

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Posted Apr 02 2017 - 05:46 AM

I realized another thing: With my default setup it seems I have to brake 50m before others break. Like e.g. before the 1st Lesmo I have to brake right on the first 200m sign while I watched videos where they break later. How can I improve my brakes?

Also here are my newest sector times, would really appreciate if someone could compare it to his times with default setup:

19:30
27:04
18:64
25:38
1:30,36

Edited by Pippen, Apr 02 2017 - 06:19 AM.


#88 Pete Gaimari

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Posted Apr 02 2017 - 08:26 AM

We have all moved past the default setup. You should too.

#89 John Woods

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Posted Apr 02 2017 - 09:34 AM

For most enjoyment and improvement overall, in all aspects, learn how to make your own setups.
You can still use default setups or other people's setups, but have to dial them in.
If you assume a setup engineer was competent, there are only three setup variables to start tweaking.

1. Steering ratio, so when you move the steering wheel the car does more like what you think you want.
   a. Guaranteed, it is only by coincidence someone else has dialed in their rig the same as yours
   b. Guessing with a keyboard a driver would want a much higher ratio than a wheel user
2. Anti-roll bars, (ARBs), moved in opposite direction to each other to achieve neutral steering balance.
   a. understeer - reduce front ARB and increase rear same amount
   aa. the front ARB is too stiff and not allowing the car to roll which increases grip on outside
   b. oversteer - increase front and reduce rear
   aa. the front ARB is too weak and is allowing too much roll making the car seem to turn in too quick
   c. only when a or b does not seem to help things do you move on to other setup variables or move one ARB more than the other
3. Brake bias
   a. generally, you want to get it to where, if you slam on the brakes and lock them up, all four tires begin to show skid marks at the same time, with the front starting just an instant before the rear.
   b. But a is a matter of opinion, other driver's seem to want the rear brakes to begin leaving skid marks just before the fronts.
   c. My opinion is don't use them 98.8 percent of the time

Don't mess with springs, shocks, toe...anything else.
You are assuming all that is good.
All you want to do is the minimum to match their setup to you and your rig.

:D

#90 ginetto

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Posted Apr 02 2017 - 11:39 AM

And empty the tank! :)

#91 Saiph

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Posted Apr 02 2017 - 02:41 PM

View Postginetto, on Apr 02 2017 - 11:39 AM, said:

And empty the tank! :)

(But not completely. It's a bit slow pushing the thing around the track! :P ;) :D About 5 - 8 gals is about ideal I find. 1 - 2 laps to get the tyres warm, then go for a quick lap.)

#92 JonnyA

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Posted Apr 02 2017 - 02:49 PM

Pippen, as an almost-average driver, my suggestion is that you make adjustments from the default set-up in the following order:

Gearing
As already discussed by much wiser heads than mine, getting your gearing right is the most important way to improve your lap time.

Tyre Pressure
For 1967 cars, the ideal is 24 PSI on the fronts, 26 PSI on the rears. You will find that as you get faster, the tyre pressures will increase (due to higher temperatures generated) and so it is important to go back every once in a while and make sure the pressures are still correct.

Brake Bias
As already noted, your brakes are most effective when the bias is set so all four wheels lock more or less simultaneously. However, I find that it can be very difficult to trail brake sometimes if the bias is too low. Increasing it by a couple of % can make trail braking much easier, and I find what I lose in the braking I can gain back through smooth, high-speed corner entry.

With these three basics covered, you really need to be confident you are pushing the car hard before you change anything else. You should know the circuit inside out and be able to literally drive laps with your eyes closed, replaying them in your head to see where you may be losing time. Only then should you think about making other changes...

Differential
After a lot of reading and playing around with differentials in GPL, I have reached the conclusion I'm not a good enough driver to feel exactly what difference the differential makes. After a lot of trial and error, I have boiled it down to this: adding more clutches makes the car want to turn more, and taking them away makes it more stable. I know that a lot of much faster drivers than me will tell you this is a gross over-simplification, but I find it works for me. If it feels like I'm really having to work to get the car turned into the corners, I add a clutch. And if it feels like the car is unsettled or twitchy, I take one away.

Spring Rate
Most default set-ups feel too hard for me, like they are designed to make the car super-reactive but I'm not good enough to take advantage. I find reducing both front and rear spring rate by 5 or 10% can sometimes make a car much easier to handle, and give me extra grip too.

Roll Bars
John just explained these really clearly. I used to play around with them a lot, but now I rarely touch them. One thing I did do, when I was learning GPL and found it really hard to provoke a clean four-wheel drift, was increase the rear roll bar about 20%. This made the car a little slower, but made it much easier to drift, which helped me learn.

Toe In
Some default setups have negative toe-in, i.e. toe-out, which makes the car reactive and quick to react to steering inputs. I find this feels too twitchy, so I always set it to around +0.01, or at least 0.

...and after all that, check the tyre pressures again, and then just drive as many laps as you can. Good luck.

#93 Michkov

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Posted Apr 02 2017 - 03:08 PM

Are you still using keyboard controls? Breaks are well below their maximum stopping power with keyboard. I remember they hardly lock a wheel when fully engaged on keyboard.

#94 Pippen

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Posted Apr 02 2017 - 03:21 PM

So I changed the steering ratio from 16:1 to 20:1 and well now it's 1:30,27 in Monza. :) Where do I find the anti roll bars in the setup menu? Also: What does brake bias mean? I just can modify the "front brake bias", by default 59. If I modify it to 50 the car breaks to the right if I break. But I still have to break like 50m before others brake....

I didn't care about gearing, but it might be time....

I still use the keyboard, maybe that's the reason for soft brakes?

Anyways, thx for all the help and info, it's just fun to squeeze all those 1/100sec. out of a course. :)

Edited by Pippen, Apr 02 2017 - 03:25 PM.


#95 JonnyA

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Posted Apr 02 2017 - 03:33 PM

Pippen, the roll bars are called Roll Bar Stiffness and are just under Toe In for the front and rear on the Suspension set-up page.

Brake bias is called Front Brake Bias. At 50%, as you find, the car will try to pull to the side when you brake. But at 59% for a 1967 car, you are not applying maximum braking effort, although the car will be easier to control.

Please remember the AI braking does not use the same physics that apply to you. It is set by a value called "braking_efficiency_coeff" at the very bottom of the file called (I think) gpla67.ini, which is in the top-level GPL folder. I find the default braking effectiveness for the AI is much too high - try reducing it by 0.1 and see if the AI are closer to what you find possible. But remember, this slows the AI lap times down, so don't use it as an excuse to stop trying to go faster!

By the way, when I mentioned Toe In earlier, I meant front Toe In, not rear, which should always be positive.

#96 Pippen

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Posted Apr 02 2017 - 04:37 PM

View PostJonnyA, on Apr 02 2017 - 03:33 PM, said:

Brake bias is called Front Brake Bias. At 50%, as you find, the car will try to pull to the side when you brake.

Can one neutralize this effect? If I brake the car is pulling to the side and usually I can't hold it. There must be some antidote to that or anything below 55%'d be useless.

#97 John Woods

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Posted Apr 02 2017 - 05:07 PM

View PostPippen, on Apr 02 2017 - 04:37 PM, said:

View PostJonnyA, on Apr 02 2017 - 03:33 PM, said:

Brake bias is called Front Brake Bias. At 50%, as you find, the car will try to pull to the side when you brake.

Can one neutralize this effect? If I brake the car is pulling to the side and usually I can't hold it. There must be some antidote to that or anything below 55%'d be useless.

So?
:)

Increase front brake bias and see if wandering is reduced.
What works for you is the best choice.

Anything under 62 percent front or so, my preference is 58, but I don't use brakes alone to stop the car and get off of them as quickly as possible.
Other more modern style drivers seem to prefer very hard braking very late into a corner.

Just another guess, however, probably soften the front and stiffen the rear to reduce wandering, but if that's not it, then its the opposite.
:D

Have you read thru the GPL Addicts setup instructions, Jim Pearson's Driving School, visited the Eagle Woman site or some of the other Driving School sites you can find on gpllinks?

Also, thinking keyboard users would be happier with a suspension that is not as quick as it is possible to achieve?
Both the differential and shocks vary the speed at which the suspension reacts.
An 85/30 diff is slower than 15/85.
1/1 shocks are slower than 5/5.

If not already, set latency slider in game options menu full to right (100%).
Test and if not happy slide one click to left and test again.
This might also be cause of wandering under braking.

BTW, ginetto's hint to reduce fuel weight is probably the best one yet over any change to a default setup for getting lap time down a bunch.

Edited by John Woods, Apr 02 2017 - 05:30 PM.


#98 Michkov

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Posted Apr 02 2017 - 05:16 PM

View PostPippen, on Apr 02 2017 - 04:37 PM, said:

View PostJonnyA, on Apr 02 2017 - 03:33 PM, said:

Brake bias is called Front Brake Bias. At 50%, as you find, the car will try to pull to the side when you brake.

Can one neutralize this effect? If I brake the car is pulling to the side and usually I can't hold it. There must be some antidote to that or anything below 55%'d be useless.

Your foot, it's usually done with modulating the pressure on the brake. Keyboard is sadly only brake on or off, thats why they are weak on purpose with KB controls.

Brake bias adjusts the amount of brake force per axel. So 55% means 55% of the braking force is going to the front wheels, while the remaining 45% is applied at the rear.
Now what generally happens when you go to the extremes with this setting is the axle locking up under brakes. For the front this means front tyres locking for high numbers which will lead to you understeering off the road. Or the rear locking up which usually means snap oversteer as the rear tyres stop rotating sending your car into a spin. I suggest you try to run both extreme ends just to see what it does to the car.

The ideal break bias lets you brake with all 4 tyres locking at the same time. Best place to try is the S/F straight at Monza, jump on the brakes and look which tyres stop spinning first. Fronts, go back a tick, rears go foreward. To be safe I usually run a tick or two too much foreward BB as locked fronts are easier to correct than locking rears.

Later you can use the BB to help you tune the turn in of the car, but that comes with the ability to modulate brake pressure.

#99 PTRACER

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Posted Apr 02 2017 - 05:24 PM

I feel like I wrote this post on the first page for absolutely nothing.

View PostPTRACER, on Mar 06 2017 - 08:17 PM, said:

I was pretty good at keyboard driving back in the day. The last time I did a fast keyboard lap at Monza was in 2003, when I did a 1:31.6. I'm sure I would be faster now as I went over a second faster than the GPLRank benchmark for Silverstone just two years ago.

Anyway, the key to driving fast with keyboard is to not make "big" movements. Very smooth driving, keeping the car as straight as possible under braking and acceleration is important. So when you're braking for a corner, you want to be using your left and right steering keys to keep the car straight, otherwise the game will reduce the effectiveness of the braking so the tyres don't lock up. During cornering, you shouldn't hold the steering key down all the way, but 'feather it' around the corner. If you have to use full steering lock you've gone in too fast.

On some circuits, like Silverstone, braking deep into the corners is actually advantageous because the car starts to turn for you and you get better corner entry speed. I'd say not to try these things yet until you get more experienced. Just don't be too fast into the apexes and be very, very smooth. Your laptimes will come down for sure.

About setups - changing too much from the default is not a good idea. The setups you find online are for wheel setups and they will be too loose, so you'll end up being slower. All you can do from the default is reduce the ride height, make sure the tire pressures are equal and keep to either 55% or 56% brake bias.


#100 John Woods

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Posted Apr 02 2017 - 06:10 PM

Wandering under hard acceleration could maybe also be caused by too low roll bar settings compared to shock setting or too much rebound or by incorrect toe settings?

:)

Edited by John Woods, Apr 05 2017 - 08:00 AM.





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