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differential balance wheelrates

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#21 Roo

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Posted Mar 26 2016 - 04:19 AM

I use a standard setup at all tracks (differs slightly per mod) with a pretty neutral chassis & change the diff/clutches to achieve the desired amount of oversteer for the current track, but in general I will be at 60/45/1 in 65's & 85/45/2 in 67's, brake balance around 50-51%, LF braking.
IMO my biggest gains in laptime come from refining my braking à la Jim Clark & improving my line, apex speed & exits. Having a chassis that I'm familiar with & gives me good tyre temps allows me to 'drive' the track, not fight the car.

When I have used Robert's setups in the past, the diff has been too alien/aggressive/loose for me. If I switch it to  my preferred diff the car is still too oversteery compared to my standard setup but I can generally cope with it.
Learning to drive loose diff's is where the aliens take seconds out of my pb's. Maybe I should actually learn how to drive them!? :D

#22 Manfred Cubenoggin

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Posted Mar 26 2016 - 06:10 AM

Ah, but Roo...  Is ultimate speed and lowest lap time the goal?  I compete in sims with an eye to realistic driving and feel confident that given the chance to actually drive the marques we are presented with in GPL, I could quite readily get within 5% or less of my GPL times given an hour or two of seat time.  From what I see of some much faster GPL drivers and their techniques, I can't see them getting out of pit lane without a major shunt!  :)

#23 Roo

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Posted Mar 26 2016 - 07:30 AM

View PostManfred Cubenoggin, on Mar 26 2016 - 06:10 AM, said:

Ah, but Roo...  Is ultimate speed and lowest lap time the goal?  I compete in sims with an eye to realistic driving and feel confident that given the chance to actually drive the marques we are presented with in GPL, I could quite readily get within 5% or less of my GPL times given an hour or two of seat time.  From what I see of some much faster GPL drivers and their techniques, I can't see them getting out of pit lane without a major shunt!  :)

When I first started driving GPL speed & laptime were the goals but I realized it was at the detriment of my race craft. So I stopped searching for that 'super fast setup that was going to make me an alien' & began working on my race craft which obviously requires a calmer, more consistent driving style hence my above mentioned setup philosophy.

I would love to go fully realistic but circumstance prevents me getting 3 pedals & a shifter. These days I am striving to drive these beauties as if I was there & I have loads more fun whilst racing now, without causing/having so many accidents. My silverware has increased in the process too :)

As you said, laptime now comes from seat time, which sadly is limited by real life. I race against Robert & he definitely has a pace advantage on me (even in a BT7 against my Lotus33!) but he is also very consistent & makes few mistakes which makes him very tough to beat. This is why I contemplate learning the alien diff's ;)

#24 Pete Gaimari

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Posted Mar 26 2016 - 08:11 AM

Alien diffs won't make you fast, or an alien. Alien diffs just make it easier to drive for the aliens.

Botton line. Greger was almost as fast driving an 85/30/5 diff and that was the beginning of his driving career. Imagine how fast he would have gotten if he stayed with those diffs. His next step was 85/45/5 diffs and those times come within 1-2 tenths of his best PB's.

Diffs can only do so much to make you fast. Some guys think if they could drive the alien setups they'd be faster. Not true. They aren't faster, because they can't drive the alien setups. It's not the setup the car has. It's the guy holding the steering wheel.

#25 John Woods

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Posted Mar 26 2016 - 08:52 AM

View PostRoo, on Mar 26 2016 - 07:30 AM, said:

This is why I contemplate learning the alien diff's ;)

Good idea for sure.
:)
But I would not call it "alien" as inducing oversteer and counter-steering to maintain a given line is rather a proper technique for any racer.

Counter-steering technique is the critical skill because it is easy to make a car oversteer. As talent is developed a driver will be more comfortable with more throttle-induced oversteer and applying more counter-steer.

As for RF's setups, the difficulty with them, (and others), is more likely due to not adjusting his setups to your display and/or (same thing) having a different display configuration than his. Sure if you got on his rig you would, as apparently he must, find his setups are very drive-able.

Skid Fun btw is a geat place to experiment with high speed oversteer and counter-steer.

Skid Fun now has a display configuration matrix that in theory enables accurately matching displays to same virtual space so, still in theory, setups can be shared without having to make adjustments to compensate for display configuration differences.

Surely GH preferred his later setups as he was by then more capable of using more throttle-induced oversteer. As Pete notes, likely it had not so much to do with why he was/is faster than stink, but with the later diff setups he was even faster than stink than before. Would be interesting to know what else in his setups he changed as the diff got looser.

Edited by John Woods, Mar 26 2016 - 09:14 AM.


#26 Pete Gaimari

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Posted Mar 26 2016 - 09:40 AM

I have to disagree with your oversteer/countersteer method as being the fastest John. You need to watch more aliens driving WR times.

Sliding is scrubbing speed. Slight 4 wheel drift...yes. Countersteering oversteer....no. Tracking/no sliding..... fast.

#27 John Woods

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Posted Mar 26 2016 - 10:08 AM

View PostPete Gaimari, on Mar 26 2016 - 09:40 AM, said:

I have to disagree with your oversteer/countersteer method as being the fastest John. You need to watch more aliens driving WR times.

Sliding is scrubbing speed. Slight 4 wheel drift...yes. Countersteering oversteer....no. Tracking/no sliding..... fast.

Not full lock countersteer...just enough to balance the center of the car on the racing line when at max lateral load.

Really I do not like all the discussion about what happens farthest away from CG and prefer to consider what is happening at/near the center of the car...(driver POV). It does help to understand what happens out there, but it is not to me the major thing going on.

The center of mass is dynamic. It moves away from and returns to the car's static center as the car goes thru a turn, accelerates, or brakes. It is only one thing to think about.

A neutral steering car goes faster thru a turn when the driver induces oversteer with throttle, to bring the rear around, placing the rear in slip, and countersteers to maintain stable balance at the front while the car takes a line of least resistance across the camber of the track surface...this puts all four wheels in slip, (the definition of drift?). Pretty sure this is a very well established historically accurate real racer technique, so if I have been confusing or confused...yet again, its just what I do.

Understand drifting scrubs off speed, so the driver can allow for that with less braking or reduction of speed at entry and so maintain a higher average speed thru a turn and around track?

For sure, less drifting means faster lap times, but as I understand the purpose of a quick drift is to make a very rapid change of vector direction that would otherwise not be possible.

For instance, I do not drift around La Source but do toss one in near the middle of the Masta Kink and at entry to Stavelot. In that fraction of a second, the rear takes off toward infinity and the only way to stop it is counter-steer.

Thanks for helping to clarify what I think I mean.
:)

Edited by John Woods, Mar 26 2016 - 10:54 AM.


#28 Pete Gaimari

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Posted Mar 26 2016 - 10:49 AM

I've only watched a replay of yours at Monza john. You were pretty crossed up in every turn. Even through CG.

What you want is to bring the wheel back to center early and then finish the turn with the throttle. Seldom does the wheel go past center when countersteering. Maybe  a quick flick to get the car back on line, but mostly the wheel will be around center coming off a turn.

Watch this replay.

Attached Files



#29 John Woods

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Posted Mar 26 2016 - 11:21 AM

That was years ago.

(Deleted link, sorry I see it shows not much).

BTW, I see lots and lots of wild rapid counter-steering going on watching videos from sixties F1?

Edited by John Woods, Mar 26 2016 - 11:25 AM.


#30 Pete Gaimari

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Posted Mar 26 2016 - 11:23 AM

Not when you watch Jimmy.

#31 Pete Gaimari

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Posted Mar 26 2016 - 11:30 AM

How does your video help? I can't see your hands. That view isn't realistic because we have peripheral vision. I can see my hands and wheel when I drive.

#32 Robert Fleurke

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Posted Mar 26 2016 - 11:59 AM

Quote

For the layman  (somebody that doesn’t go into all this setup stuff...) a simple way to under stand the quote "You must understand the difference between oversteer and over rotation with the diff, if you dont get this point...you won't understand."

It might be easy to explain it as "You must understand the difference between oversteer and power slide (over rotation) with the diff, if you dont get this point...you won't understand." As most people know what a power slide is.

It's over rotation using the gas peddle past the natural balance of the car. Think Top Gear and Clarkson shouting "POOOOWWWEERR!!!!"

Edited by Robert Fleurke, Mar 26 2016 - 12:03 PM.


#33 John Woods

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Posted Mar 26 2016 - 12:02 PM

Counter-steering to hold the car on the line is very subtle, more like just a bit of countering pressure on the steering wheel, so a driver can be applying left counter-steer even tho the wheel is turned to the right.

Edited by John Woods, Mar 26 2016 - 12:04 PM.


#34 John Woods

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Posted Apr 23 2016 - 08:31 AM

Since Pete's post clarifying the quickest diff possible in Grand Prix Legends have been happy getting more and more comfortable adjusting to running 15/85/1.

Finally aware critical diff factor is speed of car's rotation caused by diff setting, its a whole new game.

Now that the diff makes a lot more sense, the coast setting makes even more sense. Before, the last thing I wanted to do was go into coast. If I did, it was under braking or in my view appropriate only when recovering from some other error.

At last understand the purpose of coast is to steer the rear...which I had been doing but was thinking I was just letting off because of understeer.

Well, duh.

Now barely let off - to bring the rear around - and throw the car into the cushion to create a false apex, then get on it with slight countersteer to keep the front pushed into the track camber for max front grip, (as indicated by consistent tire sound).

If the rear does not move fast enough, something else has to be done...which means error in diff setup is causing all sorts of other compounding errors in setup and driving technique.  

The diff and rear shocks are tuned to set the speed at which they function, that is, the controlled by the driver speed at which the rear moves away from and back to its static center.

They work together, or not, as Alison Hine once commented but I did not understand why or how.

Guessing the greatest potential to be quick and fast is to use the quickest/fastest diff and shock settings and get used to that?

Wondering BTW what anonymous might have to say about diff clutches?

Edited by John Woods, Apr 23 2016 - 08:32 AM.


#35 Robert Fleurke

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Posted Apr 23 2016 - 08:51 AM

Diff clutches only exaggerate/multiply the locking percentage...you can see these in GPL Setup Manager....

Try 15/85/6! lol!





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