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#16 John Woods

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Posted Apr 02 2013 - 08:21 AM

View PostPete Gaimari, on Mar 29 2013 - 07:08 PM, said:

Good grief John!! Kind of arcade no?

Ahh...No.
JMO of course, the default driver view unmodified is entirely unrealistic and cartoonishly stretched out with way too much view of the cockpit. No way to get a realistic view...but a better view, (of course its a matter of opinion), is possible. Creating an accurate view by sync'g the display to the user's view of it is surely accepted as critical in any video game or sim, as noted by the wikipedia info provided in the VRMA thread.

Somewhere it was noted awhile back, by me, that AJ Foyt commented he focused on the track several hundred yards in front because by the time he reacted to what was out there, at the speeds he was traveling, he'd already be there. Think he was concerned about his view of his thighs or the front brake calipers?

Bob S...As noted, I'm now using the default driver view modified with GPLSA and FOVed. About as accurate as possible and show the mirrors, but still no pitboard.

paco, give up on the arcade view altogether. Check out how F1 driver's of the era sat in the car's and where their heads/eyes were located and imagine what their view was and what they were focusing on, then try to replicate that.

In contrast to Pete's opinion, and its just my opinion, the analysis I've presented in the back pages of the VRMA thread yields a very close to historically accurate driver view "looking straight ahead into 2D simulation of 3D space."

It is possible to get close to realistic, but more importantly really is just getting used to what you've got, whatever it is. In contrast to reality, and many other racing sims also, with Grand Prix Legends utilities a user can create a more accurate (in their opinion) driver view that may help them go faster because what they see is tuned to their perception/conception of what they think they would see if the view was "real."

Edited by John Woods, Apr 03 2013 - 07:25 AM.


#17 1967driver

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Posted Apr 03 2013 - 05:25 AM

I agree all you write, John; can you post a picture of your realistic driver view ?
If anyone is interested, i can post my collection of self-made rollbar view (i like to change my point of view often, and i hate chassis movement in defaul cockpit view).

#18 John Woods

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Posted Apr 03 2013 - 06:58 AM

I'd only call my driver view close to as good as it can get so far, and my current driver view looks about like many others I've seen posted...POV moved forward and up, basically.
Instead of my driver view, check this pic out. Its Alex Rossi driving the Lotus 49 at Circuit of the Americas, featured in the May issue of Road & Track. What did he see? That's what I'm going with now, or trying to get to.

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Edited by John Woods, Apr 03 2013 - 07:04 AM.


#19 Pete Gaimari

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Posted Apr 03 2013 - 08:39 AM

John.........No matter what you think of the default view. It's way way more realistic than the rollbar view you used. That's pure arcade!

I use the default view, and I see nothing wrong with it. You have to keep in mind that we can't look around the cockpit like you can in real life. Unless you have TrackIR. If it shows a little more than real life in a frozen head position. It doesn't show anywhere near as much as you can when looking around in real life. I feel like I can't see enough with the default view. I can't see the gearshift on some cars as an example. That would be pretty easy to do in real life with a simple movement of the eyes. We can turn our head to look at the mirrors, so we need to sit back until we can.

You had no mirrors in the rollbar view. How can you race like that? You had no tach? Unbelievable to me. I look at the tach for every shift.

The default view is fine. Just get used to it.

#20 1967driver

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Posted Apr 03 2013 - 09:31 AM

This is my best interpretation of a driver view (16:9 40" TV in front at my steering wheel).

@ Pete: default in-car view is wrong because driver is rigidly linked to chassis (that should be stopped against our eyes); you should not view cockpit movement, correct view is one in replay.
I ever race with a rollbar view modified, and it's not a problem to do this without mirrors: Pribluda and engines sound give me a good feeling to know where is a driver near my car.

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Edited by 1967driver, Apr 03 2013 - 09:31 AM.


#21 Pete Gaimari

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Posted Apr 03 2013 - 09:45 AM

I can't agree. The eyes should just barely see over the wind screen. You're sitting too high. Here's a shot of Hill. Clark was even lower.

Posted Image

#22 one2fwee

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Posted Apr 03 2013 - 12:10 PM

You need to use historical pictures to get an accurate idea of driving position.
When raced now, things are altered and adjusted - the seating position is a lot higher.

If you look at period pictures, you can see that the top of the head is barely inches over the roll bar, where as in your modern picture it is at least a foot!!
(Obviously, in the new picture, i am referring to the original roll bar, not the retro-fitted modern one).

See:
Posted Image

Posted Image

And actually i found an interesting one from 1969 with a higher rollbar more like the one on your modern pic, see here:
http://onlyhdwallpap...llpaper-472166/


Edit - fixed the 1969 higher rollbar link, it seems linking directly to the image isn't taken too kindly ;)

Edited by one2fwee, Apr 03 2013 - 08:05 PM.


#23 Pedro

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Posted Apr 03 2013 - 12:18 PM

This is my race seat and driving view.

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#24 Pete Gaimari

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Posted Apr 03 2013 - 01:19 PM

1967driver.....You're too high. Way too high. Look at my avatar.

Posted Image

Edited by Pete Gaimari, Apr 03 2013 - 02:20 PM.


#25 1967driver

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Posted Apr 03 2013 - 01:30 PM

I agree with your considerations, but remember: driving view can only be a compromise, human eye have characteristics not reproducible with a monitor/s.
In my view, you have to sit with eyes at level of low TV margin, and you gain a good sensation to be in a cockpit.
It's also difficult lower this view, 3d poligons in GPL become wrong if you try to do so.

#26 John Woods

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Posted Apr 03 2013 - 07:03 PM

Because Grand Prix Legends is its own reality and its own art and sport, when focusing on using it alone there need be little regard for real life racing whether historic or current as those things are, within the limited context of actual-analog use, something else.
Grand Prix Legends provides the capacity to modify driver view, so my idea is, use that capacity.
Rather than wonder and ponder about history and reality, some may prefer to determine the most effective settings given their understanding of how to make things happen when playing Grand Prix Legends. For instance, after many years of occassional testing my preference based on lap time comparisions was to use a 42-degree FOV and adjust driver view so only the insides and tops of the tires were apparent at the edges of the back-then much smaller display.
No matter how I messed with driver view, I was always fastest at 42-degrees, and my preference was to magnify the view I want to focus on...which is in front of the car and between the front wheels...and that's all because, all my driving life I've shifted by the sound of the engine and never the tach, (except in loud traffic etc why bother?), and don't take my eyes off the road because things happen in an instant even on city streets.
Talk about reality, imagine driving in real iife looking out thru your monitor, as if its the windshield. Would anyone want to waste precious square inches of outward view so the turn signal, shift lever or their knee is visible instead?
No idea what connection this view has to an F10 arcade view...don't understand why this comment has been repeated. JMO they are not even close.

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Edited by John Woods, Apr 03 2013 - 07:53 PM.


#27 one2fwee

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Posted Apr 03 2013 - 08:04 PM

John maybe looking at this topic might help? It seems to be the kind of thing you might be looking for.

When changing your view, you should try to position it to where the driver's eyepoint would be, and then adjust the FOV from there.
To be honest, i am assuming the cockpit views are already in the correct position - they should be from the driver's eyepoint after all.

Of course, your height vs the in-game driver height kind of comes into it, but in gpl, the driver is basically lying down so it doesn't make as much difference.


One thing that i should state that i haven't before is that your screens should be vertically positioned so that your eyeline matches up with the centre of the screen. This is because the FOV is split evenly half way - what you are effectively seeing is half the FOV above your eye and half below. In gpl (and to be honest everything else) i am not aware of a way to change this, sadly, so it is just easier to always make it so that the middle of the screen matches with your eye point - even if in terms of "viewing area" it might be more helpful to have the eyepoint lower / the screen higher.

In terms of matching up your real steering wheel with the gpl one, this is very difficult and you should not adjust the gpl view to do this.
The reason for the difference is that in order for them to be in the same place, you would have to physically make the cockpit of the car you are driving and then also hope that the in game cockpit and driving view has been accurately modelled.
Since your seating position will not reflect this, the height distance between your head and your steering wheel will no doubt be wrong!

Of course changing between cars with different seating positions means it will always be wrong, so best advice is to try not to worry, or you could try and make a cockpit that kind of "just about" works for either lying-down single seaters, or gt cars, or one that you can adjust for both (even if it means changing it every time you change car!!!).


So yer, there actually is a correct driving  camera position and also a correct FOV.

You should not change one to try and have the effect of what the other would change - for example it seems some of what 1967driver has done is change the driving position to get what he wants (unless i miss-understand some of what he wants) where as he should actually have changed the FOV.


Hope this makes sense / helps a bit, even though it is way too long and rambley.

#28 davef

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Posted Apr 03 2013 - 08:46 PM

I think a good test for the default view would be to see if you can consistently get as close to the tires at Mexico City as the drivers
did in this photo posted earlier. That looks amazingly close to me ! :phew:

Attached File  p2x16.jpg   48.38K   53 downloads

#29 John Woods

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Posted Apr 03 2013 - 09:30 PM

View Postone2fwee, on Apr 03 2013 - 08:04 PM, said:

John maybe looking at this topic might help? It seems to be the kind of thing you might be looking for.
Yes, thanks for the referral. I've only skimmed thru it so far and it seems very interesting.

When changing your view, you should try to position it to where the driver's eyepoint would be, and then adjust the FOV from there.
To be honest, i am assuming the cockpit views are already in the correct position - they should be from the driver's eyepoint after all.

Nope, do not agree, do not care where any real driver's eyepoint would be, and suggest that is an inappropriate parameter.
No idea why default driver view looks like it does, but it is surely not what a real driver "sees" (that is, what the driver is looking at), when looking out over the windscreen. Why not display that as if a user is a real life driver, because...they are real life just as much as online racing is real racing.

Of course, your height vs the in-game driver height kind of comes into it, but in gpl, the driver is basically lying down so it doesn't make as much difference.

I would agree they are well-reclined, but not basically lying down.

One thing that i should state that i haven't before is that your screens should be vertically positioned so that your eyeline matches up with the centre of the screen. This is because the FOV is split evenly half way - what you are effectively seeing is half the FOV above your eye and half below. In gpl (and to be honest everything else) i am not aware of a way to change this, sadly, so it is just easier to always make it so that the middle of the screen matches with your eye point - even if in terms of "viewing area" it might be more helpful to have the eyepoint lower / the screen higher.

Something I forget and a great point. One of the "unknown" values in CarCamEdit may have something to do with this in how it controls vertical parallax.

In terms of matching up your real steering wheel with the gpl one, this is very difficult and you should not adjust the gpl view to do this.

Its a lot of work that's for sure, but once a rig is built, that's it, so why not adjust view to match?

The reason for the difference is that in order for them to be in the same place, you would have to physically make the cockpit of the car you are driving and then also hope that the in game cockpit and driving view has been accurately modelled.

Yes...exactly. I use an old car seat and a plywood rig built out of scrap. Used a tape measure and big protractor to lock in accuracy.

Since your seating position will not reflect this, the height distance between your head and your steering wheel will no doubt be wrong!

This goes right back to the first comment...

Of course changing between cars with different seating positions means it will always be wrong, so best advice is to try not to worry, or you could try and make a cockpit that kind of "just about" works for either lying-down single seaters, or gt cars, or one that you can adjust for both (even if it means changing it every time you change car!!!).

You are correct in that every car driving view has to be tweaked for its special case, but then its done until curosity about the perfect view overtakes good sense once again. In real life driving Grand Prix Legends, my preference would be a reclining lounger with heat and massage.

So yer, there actually is a correct driving  camera position and also a correct FOV.

Its the one that helps you go the fastest.

You should not change one to try and have the effect of what the other would change - for example it seems some of what 1967driver has done is change the driving position to get what he wants (unless i miss-understand some of what he wants) where as he should actually have changed the FOV.

Its a paradox and an unavoidable compromise, but everything else is as well.
Changing the POV is done to sync the display to the user, without respect to historic or realistic accuracy, because, if the display is not sync'd to the driver's unique perception/conception of it, even given an appropriately tuned display, the car will seem to the user to either oversteer or understeer entirely due to the correct timing of their inputs being based on what they "see" being different than where the computer thinks things are. So rather than getting used to it and overcompensating in the Setup Menu because nothing else can be done...do something when it can. (Just saying, sorry it took so long).

Hope this makes sense / helps a bit, even though it is way too long and rambley.
Hope this makes sense / helps a bit, even though it is way too long and rambley.


:)

Edited by John Woods, Apr 03 2013 - 09:42 PM.


#30 John Woods

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Posted Apr 03 2013 - 09:45 PM

View Postdavef, on Apr 03 2013 - 08:46 PM, said:

I think a good test for the default view would be to see if you can consistently get as close to the tires at Mexico City as the drivers
did in this photo posted earlier. That looks amazingly close to me ! :phew:

Attachment p2x16.jpg

It appears even they weren't all that good at it.




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