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Road America/Elkhart Lake


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#16 rachet1

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Posted Aug 30 2012 - 05:37 PM

Hi Mark !
here you go :

name=roadam
trackDirectory=roadam
trackShortName=roadam
flag=usaflag
month=5
day=16
numberOfLaps=65
startingGrid=10

Richard(Ratchet):drive:

#17 Burnsy865

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Posted Aug 31 2012 - 03:43 PM

Thanks Richard for posting this and also Mark of course. :hat-tip:

#18 Cheapracer

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Posted Sep 03 2012 - 12:23 PM

View Postrachet1, on Aug 22 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:


Would be nice to have somebody finish it for the CanAm mod. :idea: Hint ! Hint !  


A little story about that ...

The Can Am and '37 cars drove me crazy because I could never get them to behave as properly as they should. The whole point of GPL to me was the feedback, still the sim with easily the best feedback to the driver, sad that the feedback is wrong.  

It's no secret that I was not happy, frustrated and never convinced with the way GPL handled and I was quite outspoken about it and with others spent many years trying to get it right and I haven't driven the most recent mods but I never got it right and neither did others - and that comment doesn't go down very well!  :lol: - my purpose and only want was to get it right, not to insult but insulted they were.

Anyway, after I gave up GPL because of life changes including moving to China, a few years ago I believe I found the holy grail.

I sat back and looked at all I had done with the .exe's and what Dave Kaemmer had done. When you go right through what Kaemmer had covered it's simply incredible the detail he had gone to to simulate real world stuff, from the tyres and suspension rates, roll centers, weight transfer, as well as every single car parameter you can imagine to, believe it or not, such items as the actual real pyshic's value of Earth's gravity (9.80665 m/s2) - amazing and it's all in there.

Anyway, I sat there and figured if DK had done all this developing over many years full time from his earlier work (Indycar etc.), why am I trying to change everything, the foundation must be fundementally right and it must be just some basic values that, with respect, he's *effed* up somewhere. With thousands of values not to mention dynamic values probably in the millions, one can forgive him.

So I got all enthused again and I spent months going through everything I had ever done myself and all the results from the secret mods teams diarys and with a standard 1.2 '67.exe retested and tested and retested minor value mods and found them all a waste of time as I had the first time around and later with the mods groups. - the one's that "work" are of masking value only and not a resolve of the real issue (this is apparent to me because when you drive a real car regardless of what year or it's genre, physics don't change but when you make basic changes in GPL between '67, '37 and Can Am, simple changes such as weight and basic grip levels, the darn vehicle pyhsics changed as well, evidence it just can't be correct).

So then I went even further back and found some very old emails from when only a couple of us were at it, Phil Flack aka Guru, Richard Cooke when he was still humble and shy, me and, hmm forgot! (Paul Thurston and the other Paul probably).

Very early in the piece Guru stumbled across one value in an area we dismissed quickly and it was visited again later by the mods group and again was dismissed but rereading the posts from then (Yahoo Groups), my opinion and one other's, we thought it was a value that showed the only real world change. FWIW we were also the only 2 with real racing experience.

Anyway, I took an .exe and started changing all the values in that area and it showed promise and more promise but still frustratingly couldn't get there.  

So there I was looking at the values and what they did/changed and this will sound wierd, I then scribbled a picture of a shovel, yep a shovel!

Think of a shovel and how it relates to a cars grip; Lets dig the shovel into the ground on a ....

Steep angle with lots of weight and it won't move sideways but you can push the handle over - car has lots of downward grip and the CoG will eventually tip it over the high gripping tyres (the car rolls).  

Medium angle with lots of weight can move sideways with some force and will get deeper requiring more force until it stops - car has good sidways grip and will slide with noticable grip and stop sliding rather quickly.

Medium angle with medium weight can move sideways with some force and with diminishing force gradually comes to a stop - car has good sideways grip and slides to a stop progressively.

Shallow angle and lightweight digs in momentarily and then skims across the top with little force and little resistance - GPL '67 anybody?

These are just 4 loose examples of what I found from just 4 major and 2 more minor tuning values had on GPL's dynamics (they are actually totally variable and not restricted to a set number of results). They were in an area reasonably close to each other, not near the standard values that have been played with for many years and were initially hard to understand how the changes in values would affect the handling (I almost gave up actually as I was going around in circles) but eventually it became clear just how they interacted and also clear to me that they were where DK seemingly (and respectfully) had faulted and what ruined the '67 pyhsics.

I know what 2 of the values specifically do but the other 2 are weird and seem to apply to the CoG and RC's coupling to how it's applied to weighting the tyre dynamically, offering the 'shovel effect' mentioned above.

So with the right shovel i went online for a few races and what a dramatic change, a realistic handling car finally that you can do a whole race with and get punished for real mistakes and rewarded with real driving skills, the joy of drifting through Grande under full control is amazing. Not full control as in arcade type driving either, but control from steering and throttle balance and suddenly tracks like Zandvoort become amazing driver's track. Oh and you haven't lived until you have drifted the entire way around Stavelot!    

Anyway, in my mind I have found the GPL holy grail and believe I can apply it to all the mods in due time (I am darn busy at this point in my life).

But most of all I would like to do a proper '67 once and for all, how would that go down these days? FWIW, a real '67 is actually slower than the original GPL so there's no reason they can't run online together. Generally works out that everything is about 2 seconds slower (I spent as lot of time researching and evaluating true 1967 HP, weights, straight line top speeds and cornering speeds). The "Aliens" would still be easily fastest with the original '67 but mid field and backmarkers could race harder against each other much more consistently and for an entire race in most cases.    

Richard, would you like to actually test a 'real' 1967 Ferrari and report my findings to the forum?

Edited by Cheapracer, Sep 03 2012 - 12:36 PM.


#19 Bernd Nowak

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Posted Sep 03 2012 - 12:45 PM

Sounds interesting Mark!

I hope you can find out what the other 2 settings really do but I can imagine that this is not easy.

Thanks a lot !

#20 delgs

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Posted Sep 03 2012 - 02:09 PM

View PostCheapracer, on Sep 03 2012 - 12:23 PM, said:

View Postrachet1, on Aug 22 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:


Would be nice to have somebody finish it for the CanAm mod. :idea: Hint ! Hint !  



So with the right shovel i went online for a few races and what a dramatic change, a realistic handling car finally that you can do a whole race with and get punished for real mistakes and rewarded with real driving skills, the joy of drifting through Grande under full control is amazing. Not full control as in arcade type driving either, but control from steering and throttle balance and suddenly tracks like Zandvoort become amazing driver's track. Oh and you haven't lived until you have drifted the entire way around Stavelot!    

Anyway, in my mind I have found the GPL holy grail and believe I can apply it to all the mods in due time (I am darn busy at this point in my life).

But most of all I would like to do a proper '67 once and for all, how would that go down these days? FWIW, a real '67 is actually slower than the original GPL so there's no reason they can't run online together. Generally works out that everything is about 2 seconds slower (I spent as lot of time researching and evaluating true 1967 HP, weights, straight line top speeds and cornering speeds). The "Aliens" would still be easily fastest with the original '67 but mid field and backmarkers could race harder against each other much more consistently and for an entire race in most cases.    



That sounds tremendously exciting!

#21 rtc552

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Posted Sep 03 2012 - 08:54 PM

Fascinating read. Would love to hear more. Thanks for sharing it with us.

#22 Cheapracer

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Posted Sep 03 2012 - 08:54 PM

View PostBernd Nowak, on Sep 03 2012 - 12:45 PM, said:



I hope you can find out what the other 2 settings really do but I can imagine that this is not easy.


Hey Bernd! Wow theres some people who have been around for a loooong time!

Doesn't matter if I know what they are sepcifically for or not, all that matters is the result  :thumbup:

#23 ReneLotus

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Posted Sep 04 2012 - 10:43 AM

A very interesting read. Thanks for posting your findings in your search for GPL's Holy Grail :thumbup:

#24 sky

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Posted Sep 04 2012 - 11:16 AM

hi mark,
i'm an engineer per education so from my point of view i would like to know what the other values do as well.
bring it on

#25 Stefan Roess

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Posted Sep 04 2012 - 03:34 PM

Hi Mark

thx for that very interesting read. :thumbup:

It would be great to have a proper 67 (mod) and apply your findings to other mods.

Good luck for your research.

Cheers
Stefan

#26 Rudy Dingemans

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Posted Sep 04 2012 - 08:13 PM

View PostCheapracer, on Sep 03 2012 - 12:23 PM, said:

Anyway, in my mind I have found the GPL holy grail and believe I can apply it to all the mods in due time (I am darn busy at this point in my life).

Interesting read Mark. Hope there'll still be some progress on this.

Just curious: what's it that you do in real life? And back in China?

Regards, Rudy
(GPLRank: -40)

#27 Cheapracer

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Posted Sep 05 2012 - 02:48 AM

View PostRudy Dingemans, on Sep 04 2012 - 08:13 PM, said:



Interesting read Mark. Hope there'll still be some progress on this.

Just curious: what's it that you do in real life? And back in China?

Regards, Rudy
(GPLRank: -40)

Hey Stefan, Rudy, man theres a few old names still getting around!

I will be this year releasing a range of sports/track day cars that I have been devoloping and setting up for over the last few years here. Going to be pretty busy this half year as at least 2 car models will hit the market.

I actually started GPL up last night and having some fun again (drove till 2am!) - except for the 30 year old arcade high pitch engine sound coming through intermintently that's ruining the fun (only sometimes and only when driving, fine on replays). I have never had this issue before ever so off to read Mr Simpson's sound FAQ's..  :idunno:

All fixed, double the sound sample and halved the sound files.

Edited by Cheapracer, Sep 05 2012 - 05:37 AM.


#28 Cheapracer

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Posted Sep 08 2012 - 10:51 AM

I just drove that RoadAm, pretty basic and I'm sure I have a further advanced one than that somewhere that had the beginnings of the start tower, there's another issue with corner camber that I am aware of and was tested like that intentionally that I will need to correct, I'll have a look through the week.

I really would like to finish off but people will have to have patience.

#29 Pete Gaimari

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Posted Sep 08 2012 - 08:32 PM

A proper 67 F1 car has always been a dream. Make the dream come true Mark.

#30 Bo Bruce

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Posted Sep 18 2012 - 12:11 PM

Mark-
with the release of Can-Am, and the hope of getting F1-67, i'm sure we are all no doubt anxious to see you able to complete the project!
please keep us updated?
and best of luck on both 67s and RoadAm being finished.  :)




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