Jump to content


- - - - -

Ai Settings/Options Request


  • Please log in to reply
40 replies to this topic

#1 tobodestroyer

tobodestroyer

    Denny Hulme

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 75 posts

Posted Jan 04 2012 - 04:00 PM

Hi,

I've never really got to grips with how to control the range of speeds that a grid of AI can cover. I'd like to be able to set the speed from within Gem with a couple of extra drop-down boxes. I'd like to choose from the following (or similar) options for the Pole Position driver and the following for the last positioned driver (not necessarily 19 depending on how many AI are selected to race). All the others are spread evenly between these two values although it may be possible to have them set "mostly quick" or "mostly slow". I know that this is not historically accurate and will not replicate the real life results but it would be greatly beneficial for those of us that race the AI almosts exclusively.

AI Speed Options
Pole Position
World Record from GPL RANK
        Player Time from GPL Rank +1%
        Player Time from GPL RANK
        Player Time from GPL RANK -1%
        Player Current PB +1%
        Player Current PB
        Player Current PB -1%

Last Place
Pole Position +10%
        Pole Position +15%
        Pole Position +20%
        Pole Position +25%
        Pole Position +30%

Thanks for listening.

Pete

#2 Lee200

Lee200

    Denny Hulme

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,460 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Sim interest:GPL

Posted Jan 04 2012 - 04:59 PM

Hi Pete,

I don't think it possible to do what you want very quickly.

1.  GEM+ is pretty much set in stone.  I don't see any more revisions being done to it although Paul T. may surprise us and come back to GPL.  We can only hope.   :)

2.  Even then, the AI field speed spread is controlled mainly by the individual driver hype settings in the driver.ini files, not GEM+.  So you'd have to modify each of the driver's hype settings to do what you want.  To get the spreads you're looking for, you'd have to do a lot of testing to come up with the hype settings that would give you the desired spread.  And each mod is different which would require different hype setting changes.

GEM+'s AI Speed setting simply modifies the gpl_ai.ini file's npt_override setting so it affects all driver speeds by about the same amount and has little effect on the field spread with one exception.

The exception is that each driver has a global_hype_scaling setting which affects the driver's sensitivity to changes in npt_override, but you'd have to do a lot of testing to find new settings for this too.

It could be done given enough testing, but it would take a lot of time.

Edited by Lee200, Jan 04 2012 - 05:01 PM.


#3 John Woods

John Woods

    Be Somebody

  • GPLLinks Team
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,406 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Too Much Fun
  • Sim interest:GPL

Posted Jan 04 2012 - 06:10 PM

Whoops. Must enter a post...
:lol:

Isn't it the Global Hype Scaling routine places a player in the middle of the field on the grid by averaging laptimes over several sessions? So over time, ai in front is just a bit faster and ai behind...who cares? They are behind. While this averaging/placing in the middle routine is occuring, the pole postion and/or winning ai average laptime will match and often become quicker than records, as that must happen within the routine to keep the player in the middle. So approximately some of the things are already done sort of.

There are three places to easily modify the ai speed and measure the change by checking the leading ai's laptimes and speed:
1. gpl\core.ini (has effect on all tracks)
2. gpl\tracks\trackname\trackname.ini (has effect on that track only)
3. ai.ini (aka GEM+)

Once the leading ai laptime is set as close to any number desired, the Global Hype Scaling routine will eventually place the player/driver in the middle.


Whew. Hope I got this correct.

Edited by John Woods, Jan 05 2012 - 12:46 AM.


#4 FloP

FloP

    Denny Hulme

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 602 posts
  • Location:Rödermark
  • Sim interest:GPL

Posted Jan 05 2012 - 12:35 PM

Correct? No. ;)

Core.ini has nothing to do with AI. Believe me (or show me an AI-related parameter). trackname.ini is actually called track.ini for all tracks. ai.ini affects all tracks, mostly by overriding your npt. The npt is what you called the GHS routine, i.e. the average of the last ten or so practice and race laps. GHS determines how much the individual AI performance is affected by your npt or npt_override if active (greater than zero). Most players have an npt above 1, which usually slows the fast AI drivers a little and the slow drivers some more. It doesn't attempt to place you in a specific position in the field, but this will often put you somewhere between 10th and 15th spot as long as you drive consistently at non-alien speeds and don't spin too often.

#5 John Woods

John Woods

    Be Somebody

  • GPLLinks Team
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,406 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Too Much Fun
  • Sim interest:GPL

Posted Jan 06 2012 - 07:39 AM

Well, you are correct, I guess, (grumble, knew it was dangerous to shoot from the hip). Here are the lines in my core.ini  thought modded the AI speed:

[GP]
dlong_speed_adj_coeff=1.000000 ;value modifies dlong velocities (i.e. RELS) in .LP dlong_speed_maximum=2.390000 ;max. dlong speed (meter/tic modifiers (e.g., dlong_speed_adj_coeff)


The same lines appear in trackname\track.ini files.

Thought they are used to mod AI speeds, (average and max top end)?

Here is Alison Hine's advice about modifying AI:
"3. Adjusting the speed of the AI cars -------------------------------------

GPL's Global Hype system controls the speed of the AI drivers by adjusting their performance with relation to a value called the Normalized Player Time (NPT). Whenever you drive a practice session or race (not a training session), your best lap is averaged with your previous best ten laps at that circuit. The NPT contains this average.
It is maintained in a file called player.sts, which is in your personal players folder. You can adjust the speed of the AI by over-riding the Global Hype system. You do this by setting the value of npt_override in the [magic] stanza of the gpl_ai.ini file. The default value for npt_overried is zero; by using a nonzero value, you tell GPL to ignore your own NPT and use whatever value you specify as the NPT. Appropriate values are around 1.0; higher values make the AI slower, and lower values make them faster.
The NPT in player.sts when you first run at a given track is 1.20, which, if you have driver-slow.ini installed, will make the AI run fairly slowly. I believe a value of 1.20 is roughly equivalent to asking the AI to run at 80% of their nominal speed, so values in the range of 1.05 to 1.15 should give you nicely raceable AI, depending on your speed at a given circuit.
With the original driver.ini, the NPT has very little effect on the drivers at the front of the field (Clark, Gurney, etc.) but with driver-slow.ini, the NPT has a substantial effect and you should be able to quickly find a value for npt_override which will allow you to win or at least run at the front of a field of AI cars. The gpl_ai.ini file is in the GPL folder. You can edit it with a text editor such as Notepad."

Alison refers to modded driver.ini files, (such as driver-slow.ini), she posted for download on her Eagle Woman site. Can't find where it is stated Global Hype "system" places player in middle of grid, but sure read it somewhere, years ago.

Edited by John Woods, Jan 06 2012 - 08:51 AM.


#6 Lee200

Lee200

    Denny Hulme

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,460 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Sim interest:GPL

Posted Jan 06 2012 - 09:35 AM

John, FloP is correct.

The core.ini file has no effect on the AI.  Apparently, someone has added a dlong_speed_adj_coeff line to your core.ini, but the core.ini file is the wrong place for this setting; it should go in the track's track.ini file.

Everything that Alison said is basically correct. She mentions that changing the npt_override setting has very little effect on the fastest drivers such as Clark.  That's because when she wrote that the original driver.ini file had a very low global_hype_scaling setting for Clark which made him insensitive to changes in npt_override.  That's why I always recommend to use a global_hype_scaling setting of 1.00 for all drivers so that changes in npt_override will affect all drivers the same.

If you set npt_override to 0 (which was the original default setting), then the AI do learn from your lap times and change their speeds accordingly and probably put you somewhere in the middle of the field.  Until you have driven a sufficient number of laps though (which I believe is 10), they use an npt_override setting of 1.20.

To get back to Pete's original request, the only way I know how to control the AI like he wants is to come up with a combination of npt_override and driver hype settings that works.   That's because he wants to precisely control the fastest AND the slowest driver.  :wave:

Edited by Lee200, Jan 06 2012 - 09:50 AM.


#7 John Woods

John Woods

    Be Somebody

  • GPLLinks Team
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,406 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Too Much Fun
  • Sim interest:GPL

Posted Jan 06 2012 - 09:46 AM

Hi Lee, Good Morning,

Yes, iirc, now that I think about it, Alison many, many years ago provided a gpl/core.ini file that included the [GP] lines, but I couldn't find it on her site. I thought they worked for Ai overall. Also, Nigel notes here;http://srmz.net/inde...indpost&p=29507, (for some reason my post editor will not insert link), in a thread titled "Adjusting AI Speeds," (once a sticky?), that modding the track.ini dlong values, (as I have in my core.ini), will change the speeds of AI drivers.

Whoever did the 67AI for Pergusa deserves a compliment, btw.
Edit:
Okay, I thought Global Hype continued to do its averaging thing even when npt or dlong values were changed from zero.

Edited by John Woods, Jan 06 2012 - 09:53 AM.


#8 Lee200

Lee200

    Denny Hulme

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,460 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Sim interest:GPL

Posted Jan 06 2012 - 10:02 AM

View PostJohn Woods, on Jan 06 2012 - 09:46 AM, said:

Okay, I thought Global Hype continued to do its averaging thing even when npt or dlong values were changed from zero.

I think you're confused between npt_override and global_hype_scaling.  Npt_override is what determines whether the AI use your lap time average or whether they use a constant speed adjustment for ALL drivers.  Global_hype_scaling determines how sensitive each driver is to changes in npt_override.

Global_hype_scaling doesn't control whether averaging is done or not; that's controlled by the npt_override setting.  It just scales the effect of changes in npt_override.

#9 John Woods

John Woods

    Be Somebody

  • GPLLinks Team
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,406 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Too Much Fun
  • Sim interest:GPL

Posted Jan 06 2012 - 10:43 AM

Well you are correct, Lee, I am confused.
Here is the link to Nigel's thread:Adjusting AI Speeds
Where he clearly notes adjusting the AI by changing dlong values in track.ini.
Alison refers to The Global Hype System.
Isn't this the system/routine that does the averaging and scaling, so over time a player is placed in middle of pack?

If NPT is set to zero, scaling occurs? But set at any other value, the averaging that sets the scaling values does not occur?
What does it mean when someone states, "I turned off global hype"?(How did they do that)?

Edited by John Woods, Jan 06 2012 - 10:49 AM.


#10 Lee200

Lee200

    Denny Hulme

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,460 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Sim interest:GPL

Posted Jan 06 2012 - 11:47 AM

Yes, you can change the AI speeds for a specific track by adjusting the dlong_speed_adj_coeff setting in the track.ini file.

Disregard what Alison may have called the Global Hype System as that is a misleading term IMHO.  Whatever you call it, the "system" does adjust the AI speed based on the npt_override and driver global_hype_scaling settings which work together.  The npt_override is the on/off switch though for global_hype_scaling.  If npt_override is set to 0, then global_hype_scaling is ON and the drivers use the player's average lap times to set the AI speed.  If npt_override is at 1.00, then global_hype_scaling is OFF and the AI have what I call a "baseline" speed.  If npt_override is set greater than 0 and less than 1.00, then global_hype_scaling is OFF and the AI are faster than the baseline speed.  If npt_override is set greater than 1.00, then global_hype_scaling is ON and the AI are slower than the baseline speed.

Most of us are too slow for the baseline AI, so we need to set npt_override to something greater than 1.00 to slow them down.  This turns ON global_hype_scaling which affects the spread of the AI field unless you set each driver's global_hype_scaling to 1.00 like I recommend.

So to answer your question, to turn OFF global_hype_scaling, either set npt_override to something greater than 0 and less than or equal to 1.00 OR set each driver's global_hype_scaling setting to 1.00.

Not too confusing is it?   :shock:

Edited by Lee200, Jan 06 2012 - 11:49 AM.


#11 John Woods

John Woods

    Be Somebody

  • GPLLinks Team
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,406 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Too Much Fun
  • Sim interest:GPL

Posted Jan 06 2012 - 12:39 PM

I'm just going to drive and try to not run over any cats fleeing their evil masters.. :P

Edited by John Woods, Jan 07 2012 - 07:07 AM.


#12 FloP

FloP

    Denny Hulme

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 602 posts
  • Location:Rödermark
  • Sim interest:GPL

Posted Jan 09 2012 - 02:16 PM

View PostLee200, on Jan 06 2012 - 11:47 AM, said:

If npt_override is set greater than 0 and less than 1.00, then global_hype_scaling is OFF and the AI are faster than the baseline speed.

In other words: GHS is not used as long as npt_override is below 1. This is new to me, good to know (though I doubt that I'll ever use such a setting or achieve an npt value below 1 for that matter). This seems to make sense, though, as other wise, the backmarkers would overtake the default frontrunners once the npt_override value is too low. This would suggest that the same holds true for npt values below 1, provided that GPL even allows these. Can you confirm this and possibly tell me more, please? :hat-tip:

#13 Lee200

Lee200

    Denny Hulme

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,460 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Sim interest:GPL

Posted Jan 09 2012 - 04:48 PM

View PostFloP, on Jan 09 2012 - 02:16 PM, said:

View PostLee200, on Jan 06 2012 - 11:47 AM, said:

If npt_override is set greater than 0 and less than 1.00, then global_hype_scaling is OFF and the AI are faster than the baseline speed.

In other words: GHS is not used as long as npt_override is below 1. This is new to me, good to know (though I doubt that I'll ever use such a setting or achieve an npt value below 1 for that matter). This seems to make sense, though, as other wise, the backmarkers would overtake the default frontrunners once the npt_override value is too low. This would suggest that the same holds true for npt values below 1, provided that GPL even allows these. Can you confirm this and possibly tell me more, please? :hat-tip:

Actually, GHS is ON and used if npt_override=0 too (the original default setting).  It is OFF and ignored only if npt_override is >0.00 and <=1.00.

I know this is confusing and it confused me too years ago when I first started testing all this.

You're right that those of us who are quick need to use npt_override settings <1.00 to speed up the AI.  In this case, GHS isn't active so all the drivers are sped up about the same.

It's when npt_override is set to 0 or >1.00 that GHS is active and affects the drivers.

Uh, I don't understand your last question...

#14 FloP

FloP

    Denny Hulme

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 602 posts
  • Location:Rödermark
  • Sim interest:GPL

Posted Jan 09 2012 - 04:58 PM

All right, let me put it in other words: Am I right in assuming that with npt_override = 0 and npt < 1, GPL ignores GHS as it does for npt_override < 1?

#15 John Woods

John Woods

    Be Somebody

  • GPLLinks Team
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,406 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Too Much Fun
  • Sim interest:GPL

Posted Jan 10 2012 - 12:22 AM

Soory, guys, just jumping back in after reading thru this again.

FloP,
I don't get your logic about backmarkers overtaking default frontrunners. With npt_override at >0<1, GHS is off and ALL AI drivers run at their baseline defaults unless their driver.ini files are changed.

Lee,
Always thought averaging occurred over sessions rather than laps, with each session being a cycle from desktop to grid, and that all laps during a session are used to compute average laptime for that session, then sessions are averaged beginning after 10 have been completed and thereafter on every session based on the last 10 before.
(Also, adaptive speed control on per lap basis began with N2003)?
But I am beginning to not so much trust memory.
Haven't thought of this for years.
Still wondering how to get GPLAIM2 working again. Anyone know is there something else that does same things?

Also...(trying again)...with npt_override >1 GHS in on AND the speeds of AI drivers overall are controlled by the dlong values in track.ini files, so, if this is the case, it is possible for a player to end up after a series of experimental adjustments and a long enough series of sessions to find themselves, if good enough, in the middle of a grid on a particular track with AI leaders touring at WR times.
Is this still incorrect? Because if it is...:duh:

Edited by John Woods, Jan 10 2012 - 12:25 AM.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

Sim Racing Links