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Teaching Slide Control To Rl Learner...which Tracks ?


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#1 Transit

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Posted Aug 06 2020 - 05:26 PM

Hi Guys
Here's a weird one  :)
I have been teaching someone to drive for quite a while on the actual roads around here.
I wish there was some kind of closed track for driver training near here. I like the idea of those outrigger jobbies that simulate loss of grip.
Anyway I thought GPL might at least get them a feel for what understeer feels like ( :D) and how to correct slides etc
I think nice wide open runoffs with low grip track is what I need but can't think which ones fit the bill!
any suggestions gratefully accepted
cheers from NZ
Pete

edit
I always enjoyed that story of the guy who was driving at night when forced off the road ...
and found himself heading down a wet grassy hill studded with random trees...
credited his thousands of hours in GPL to his subsequent sliding dance to the bottom all trees avoided

then I thought of Fangio at Monaco slowing instinctively as the crowd was facing the wrong way at a pileup round the corner
great thing the human senses and reactions

Edited by Transit, Aug 06 2020 - 05:32 PM.


#2 jgf

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Posted Aug 06 2020 - 09:09 PM

The fictional Bounty Beach track is smooth and wide, great for practicing drift.  In real life I learned car control on old dirt roads in the rural south, miles of them on private property;  no one but old farmers to wonder about that "dam stupid kid"  going sideways in a '51 Studebaker pickup.

#3 fajanko

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Posted Aug 07 2020 - 01:27 AM

Monza, Silverstone, Glen - both great places to learn car control. Plus we have Skidpad Fun track for some extreme tests :)

My driving skills got much better with my GPL experiences - sense of traffic, speed recognition, driving in rain, in snow, reacting accidents ahead, etc..

#4 Stefan Roess

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Posted Aug 07 2020 - 02:29 AM

I don`t know how much the guy you are teaching is into GPL and PCs in general.

GPL is quite easy to install today, but can still be a bit tricky for someone who is not so much into computers.
If you want to get someone quickly into testing understeer and oversteer on a PC without the need to configure a lot on the PC I would suggest to install the free demo version of
Live for Speed (LfS)
https://www.lfs.net/

The demo includes a front wheel and two rear wheel driven cars.
• XF GTI (front wheel drive)
• XR GT (rear wheel drive)
• Formula BMW FB02 (rear wheel drive)

Tech. details on cars here: https://www.lfs.net/contents

Btw: The LfS community is still strong. Besides leagues you still find people racing online on pick up server. :)

:wave:

Edited by Stefan Roess, Aug 07 2020 - 02:34 AM.


#5 Saiph

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Posted Aug 07 2020 - 04:31 PM

GPL will teach a real-life learner driver absolutely NOTHING about driving. In my opinion, you shouldn't use it as a teaching aid for a real-life driver.

Firstly, you would need to set up the GPL car so it is capable of recovering from slides. Some aggressive GPL setups are completely removed from real life, so if the driver starts getting into a spin, it is unrecoverable. They rely on using the instability of the car to increase its "pointability", but they gamble on not getting into a spin to complete a successful lap. That does not resemble real-life driving, and would probably lead to the learner driver picking up bad driving habits.

Secondly, even if you found a setup which was more forgiving, there's no guarantee that it would actually resemble the "feel" of a real-life car. You could spend a couple of weeks teaching a learner how to handle a GPL car, but if you then took them out on a real-life skid-pan, they would not be able to control the car. They would still be trying to drive the computer game instead of the real car.

Thirdly, and the biggest problem in my opinion, is that driving GPL on a PC doesn't give you ANY g-forces through your seat and through your body. Feeling what a real-life car is doing is a very important part of being able to drive properly. GPL does NOT simulate that part of real-life driving AT ALL.

In my opinion, getting a learner driver to play GPL would at least be misleading for them, and at worst could lead to them picking up bad driving habits which could end up being dangerous for them on real roads.

It may be true that someone who is already an experienced real-life driver may be able to appreciate the way a GPL car behaves (or misbehaves), and may be able to pick up some ideas about how to correct understeer or oversteer. But a learner is so busy trying to gain experience with how a real-life car feels, that any driving done with GPL would only distract them and mislead them.

GPL is a game, based on 1960's cars, on closed racetracks, where there is no real danger. Real-life driving is based in 2020, with modern car technology, and on public roads. There is almost zero comparison between the two. GPL does not simulate modern car handling. Don't use it as a teaching tool.

#6 jgf

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Posted Aug 07 2020 - 07:52 PM

"Thirdly, and the biggest problem in my opinion, is that driving GPL on a PC doesn't give you ANY g-forces through your seat and through your body. Feeling what a real-life car is doing is a very important part of being able to drive properly. GPL does NOT simulate that part of real-life driving AT ALL."

No sim is capable of that.  Which is why I'm not concerned with "cheats" in sims.  Older F1 cars, sport cars, and stock cars did not have paddle shifters, but GPL, GTR2, and N2k3 do not have peripheral vision or tactile feedback, so it's a trade-off.   (It's also why I am a much worse driver in a sim than in real life.)

Just like even the best flight sim cannot teach you to fly an airplane (though they are  useful for learning instruments and navigation).

#7 paul skingley

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Posted Aug 08 2020 - 06:25 AM

We were all boy racers once. :)
When I started driving most of the cars I could afford were rear wheel drive on X ply tires. If it was raining you could drift to your heart's content at 30 mph.
Brakes would lock so you learnt Cadence braking because you had to.

But things have changed.
Now with ESC, ABS, and other driving aids the car gets you out of trouble unless you are driving like a complete idiot,

Driving on the public roads should be about about safety for you, your passengers and other road users. Drive at a comfortable speed in a defensive manor.


I would not teach racing techniques for use on the public roads especially with a sim.
No sim is like the real thing. You soon learn that after a few laps in a real single seat car with wings and slicks on a fast race track


If you want to have fun with 4 wheels ( or 2 ) do some track days...... worth every penny ;)


Paul

Edited by paul skingley, Aug 08 2020 - 06:30 AM.


#8 Transit

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Posted Aug 08 2020 - 08:08 PM

Excellent replies thanks very much !
I just came back from a driving lesson :)
The warnings are of course completely correct.

I could have given more information with my op
the student has had 21 lessons now and is quickly building competency
It has been very interesting to translate my driving experience over 50 years into bight size bits in a useful order :)

We just drove along a country road with 100 kph limit, gravel non edge then 6 foot deep ditch either side...
I pointed to the gravel and explained how to stay calm if forced onto it by an oncoming car...
running off the road, over correcting into a tankslapper is a favorite way of crapping out down here.

See that is where I disagree that GPL is nothing like rl...
I can tell her what understeer is ...but actually feeling the steering wash out and seeing the effect...
I can tell her the arse might hang out if she has the misfortune to buy a Beetle ...but no amount of being told to "steer with the slide' helps in the heat of the moment.

Pity it's not a 4wd we could blast up and down the local beach :)


I like the idea of 'Skidpad' mentioned above appeals
just keep going faster in a steady radius unlil washout occurs then regain steering by backing off
Thanks for the tip on LFS, some front wheel drive makes sense

#9 Transit

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Posted Aug 08 2020 - 08:23 PM

View Postpaul skingley, on Aug 08 2020 - 06:25 AM, said:

We were all boy racers once. :)
When I started driving most of the cars I could afford were rear wheel drive on X ply tires. If it was raining you could drift to your heart's content at 30 mph.
Brakes would lock so you learnt Cadence braking because you had to.

But things have changed.
Now with ESC, ABS, and other driving aids the car gets you out of trouble unless you are driving like a complete idiot,

Driving on the public roads should be about about safety for you, your passengers and other road users. Drive at a comfortable speed in a defensive manor.


I would not teach racing techniques for use on the public roads especially with a sim.
No sim is like the real thing. You soon learn that after a few laps in a real single seat car with wings and slicks on a fast race track


If you want to have fun with 4 wheels ( or 2 ) do some track days...... worth every penny ;)


Paul

yeah the old cadence braking in a 1957 Morris Minor down long hill with hairpin :)
My Mums 1960 Mini was a hoot, oversteer available via handbrake

don't worry guys, I'm not teaching racing techniques. Basically going for 67f2 trainer in auto with low grip surface.

#10 Pete Gaimari

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Posted Aug 09 2020 - 09:58 AM

Just tell him to turn into the slide and have fun. Repeat until good at it.

#11 M Needforspeed

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Posted Aug 09 2020 - 10:39 AM

comparing our eyes peripherical vision with the angle you can get with a triple screens and a FOV correctly adjusted, I can say GPL  displays  side objects naturally, that's means a bit  blurred to human eyes, but no more than objects I wld see on a real road if the eyes stay focused on the road line ahead. . So apart from the distortion of elongated objects, with Triples , we do have a credible peripherical vision (= LARGER THAN ENOUGH !) in GPL and  certainly all  others sims.  As good globaly as when I drive my real  cars. Sat at the wheel, then took shots with a lens set at the same FOV as human eyes in my spider and did compare.
And honestly, this new peripherical vision change the gaming experience,as well as far bigger cockpit and larger  front track.Usually front screen center is at 80 cm form the head, so your car and more important your body feels being like inside the movie in front of you. Deeper involved in the scene and the game.

I am stating the obvious :D  ,  all videos with triple screens doesn't give any idea of the experience, as we see more often all the hardware and the gaming rig, and the camera located behind the driver, with a remote driving scene.

Edited by M Needforspeed, Aug 09 2020 - 01:38 PM.


#12 one2fwee

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Posted Aug 13 2020 - 05:27 PM

If you want something that is good and more like a modern road card you could try netkar pro. It is now freeware.
It is the sim that Kunos made before Assetto Corsa and in some ways i like it better.

Download here:
http://www.netkar-pro.com/main/

It has a modern Fiat 500 Abarth and a fictional vintage GT car (looks a bit like a 250 GTO).
Personally i spent a good amount of time with the demo car, Formula Ford 1600.

It has a test track with skid pad, some nice fictional circuits and a real hill climb.
But now you can activate it for free since they released it freeware and shut down the activation servers. You just need to enter a local activation code.

See here: http://www.virtualr....become-freeware
There are activation codes in the comments, for example the post by JamoZ.

#13 jgf

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Posted Aug 14 2020 - 01:25 AM

Where is the link?  All I see is:

"Curious? Download our free demo with one car one track and multiplayer."

#14 one2fwee

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Posted Aug 14 2020 - 06:10 AM

Oh sorry, i forgot to make it clear. The download for the ‘demo’ is actually the full version. You then enter an activation code (for example the one posted on virtualr) to unlock all of the content.




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