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Mapping Out Old Circuits


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#16 Nicolas

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Posted Oct 07 2014 - 04:56 AM

One thing I've learned: from aerial information only it can be tricky to convert a track into GPL's straights & corner sections while maintaining the actual feel of the track. A long continuous corner races completely different from a series of corner-straight-corner-straight, while it can look very similar from aerial photo's. The best way to check this is to use Streetview, if available. An interesting old track to trace today is Nivelles: it is now an industrial estate, but they kept the original track layout for the simple reason that this was the easiest to make sewer connections.

#17 one2fwee

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Posted Oct 07 2014 - 12:30 PM

Thanks for the reply!

Yer i kind of guessed that was probably the case - unfortunately it can be hard to find information on a lot of these things, especially with the older circuits :(
Yes it seems that "best educated guesses" can be all you have to go on.

#18 one2fwee

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Posted Apr 01 2016 - 03:00 PM

Just looking at info for the coming Can-Am 66 mod and had a look at Oakes Field circuit on Google Earth.
Crumbs Ginetto and Remy must have done a great job there, it's quite a hard one to map out! Unless there is older imagery somewhere than on Google Earth?
I have tried my best to map it out but a lot is guesswork and seems to disagree with maps of the circuit that are available online:
http://www.silhouet....cks/nassau.html

Interesting that i can't see a road that would make the road after Blackbeard's bend "horizontal" - so if mine is "correct" then i wonder why it was drawn like that. Of course the road could no longer exist.
And the pre-58 layout (marked in blue) is even more guesswork.

What do you lot think?

Posted Image

#19 ginetto

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Posted Apr 01 2016 - 04:35 PM

I think that you got my same feeling about the "real" layout ;)

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#20 one2fwee

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Posted Apr 01 2016 - 05:46 PM

Yes, it's very difficult to know!

I looked up Tripoli recently out of interest and most of it was gone (might post it another time).
It makes you realise how important historical aerials are.

Of course you need to ground level photos for camber too.

And if you have neither for certain corners then hmm, it must be really difficult!

I guess this is partly why i never tried myself yet but i want to one day - i just don't have the confidence that i would be able to make it accurate enough :$

Ansty looks a good simple layout to try, but with only an old aerial photo and no actual period photos or even real information i can find anyway, it's not something i feel there is enough to go on.

I guess my main source of concern for circuits is knowing subtle elevation changes etc. No idea how you are meant to go about doing that. Or is it largely best guess?


Historical circuit creation really is an art!
The most important aspect being research materials :D With enough of those, then it can somewhat become a science heheh


So, yes, we have the same feeling hehe :D Whether we are correct, who knows haha!

#21 ginetto

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Posted Apr 02 2016 - 03:33 AM

About Nassau, if you look at your aerial pic again you will notice that after the "wrong turn" there is a lake and after that is the airplane stretch.
According to the track maps, it should be extend to the pond, being very close to the airplanes and then turn.
If you look at historical pics and videos (we had both), the outside at that turn didn't look any different as it is in your aerial pic and also the turn angle match it; it wasn't a 90 degrees turn.
So I guess our guess is the right guess :P

#22 Michkov

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Posted Apr 02 2016 - 08:40 PM

My guess would be one2fwees reference map is based on a inaccurate map, maybe a stylized one from a program. It looks like its taken from the racingcircuits.net which sadly went offline 10 years ago and only exists in backups today. That in turn means the maps on there are at least that old too and back than the amount reference material available was much lower than now.

#23 ginetto

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Posted Apr 03 2016 - 03:13 AM

This is probably what lead everything out there; that turn is not the only difference.

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#24 one2fwee

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Posted Apr 09 2016 - 06:05 AM

Yes, i am unsure about the two corners / hairpin for turn one - whether that has changed since being part of the road network.

Also the older layout that i marked in blue, i am very unsure of!


I had a look at Tripoli again, and with the 2000 aerial photo, there is more left recognisable than i first though.
I could be wrong though.

Posted Image

After 2000, they changed some of the junctions so the corners are gone. In fact you can see they are already in the process of doing it in 2000.

There are probably older aerial photos available in places but it's just getting access to them.


I have found interesting thoughts about Bremgarten and Südschleife i can post if anyone is interested, to see what people think / if anyone agrees or disagrees.

Thanks!

#25 Michkov

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Posted Apr 09 2016 - 01:56 PM

Please do share your thoughts on Bremgarten and Südschleife.

#26 one2fwee

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Posted Apr 25 2016 - 04:09 PM

Ok i'll try and do those 2 later.

Here is Brands Hatch indy circuit because people talked about it in that other topic.

I did it in an image editor rather than google earth itself because the different photos don't match up very well so i had to move them about and kind of warp them a bit in order to get it a bit better.

Even modern aerials seem to have differing distortions and perspectives etc, so it doesn't make it easy to try and overly precisely.

Bear that in mind when looking at these images:

1960

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1990

Posted Image


2001

Posted Image

I would have done the whole circuit, but it's very hard to warp the 1960s spliced photos to get them to match up.
You can get a good idea of how the corners should be from looking at google earth though.

I can have another go if anyone really cares.

From the 1960s image it looks like there might have even been a small little kink to the left on the back straight just before the entry to Hawthorn's (not pictured, you'll have to check yourself) which is no longer there. However it could just be a trick of the photo so i'm not sure. Anyone know?

#27 Michkov

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Posted Apr 26 2016 - 02:52 PM

View Postone2fwee, on Apr 25 2016 - 04:09 PM, said:

From the 1960s image it looks like there might have even been a small little kink to the left on the back straight just before the entry to Hawthorn's (not pictured, you'll have to check yourself) which is no longer there. However it could just be a trick of the photo so i'm not sure. Anyone know?

Going by this videoit looks like there is only the kink in the pictures leading to Hawthorne.

#28 gliebzeit

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Posted Apr 27 2016 - 09:37 AM

Thank you for the maps, one2fwee.  Good work!  :)

#29 Phil

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Posted Apr 27 2016 - 03:13 PM

Interesting pics!  I'd love to have a '60s Indy Circuit in GPL.  Or a pre-Druids, anticlockwise version.  Love the place :)
Bit of trivia: neither Hawthorn Bend nor Stirling's Bend are named after drivers

#30 one2fwee

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Posted Apr 27 2016 - 03:22 PM

Thanks for the video link, never seen that before!

Yes, it's a tricky one, it looks like the kink is sooo mild it might even be hard to notice in the video.
For me it's hard to tell because of the video compression but there might be a slight one to the left on entry.

Of course the whole thing is amplified by the distortions to both aerial images but i tried to make a comparison.

Bear in mind that the section of the track to the left on the 1960s image (Stirling's etc) doesn't match up with the 2001 one, by quite a bit - i was mainly trying to fit the section in question, as the photos really seem kind of warped. This gives you some idea of the problems trusting and using even photos!

1960
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2001
Posted Image

So yes, i'm not sure. Like you say, it's certainly not obvious in the video, especially because he is moving across to the left at the time anyway (to set up for the corner).
It certainly wouldn't be enough to make any real difference, but maybe add a nice bit of texture.


It just shows you that you can't even rely on aerials and that how things appear from onboards doesn't give you an easy indication either (otherwise you could easily map tracks out from pure onboards).
Ever bit of data is important haha.

So, was there a kink and has hawthorn's been reprofiled slightly when runoff was changed? It's really hard to tell - if it has it was only very slight, and i would doubt that they would have bothered to change it so it's probably down to distortion.
In terms of the kink though, the way it manifests itself in the pic still makes me think there was an ever so slight one and the straight has been ever so slightly reprofiled. The changes due to distortions don't explain how the slight kink manifests itself to me.
But from what i'm guessing it would be so minute that it would only really affect you in terms of needing to turn left a bit ever so slightly while setting up for entry to the turn.

So yer, i could be completely wrong, it really is a mild difference and i can't say either way from the onboard cos it is such a small difference.

What do you think? :) Is it just the distortion of both images, or do you think it's possible they straightened it ever so slightly?

Edited by one2fwee, Apr 27 2016 - 03:28 PM.





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