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Gpl --> Rfactor 2?

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#16 Lord

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Posted May 29 2017 - 12:57 AM

To me, it's a big and fat "NO!".

Slimjim got shitcanned time and time again and got forced to make his own models, I don't see why this bloke should get a different treatment.

#17 sergioloro

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Posted May 29 2017 - 05:47 AM

I think a opportunity to convert this cars for this guy is OK. Maybe it is a option to expanded driving experience at RF2.
I love GPL, last night i had a great experience at Brno 1949 with the 55, the magis is still there, but i feel with correct cars and well done tracks for rf2/ac  this experience can be bigger!!
RF2 or AC, any of it, seems like RF2 had some adventages to represent the old times, i still dream to drove at  Brno 65 with a F3 or FJ, with modern graphics for track and car.
seems like nobody are going to make it, so i start to myself to do some 60's tracks.


Attached File  20170528220216_1.jpg   85.12K   67 downloads

#18 Lord

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Posted May 29 2017 - 06:56 AM

View Postsergioloro, on May 29 2017 - 05:47 AM, said:

I think a opportunity to convert this cars for this guy is OK. Maybe it is a option to expanded driving experience at RF2.
I love GPL, last night i had a great experience at Brno 1949 with the 55, the magis is still there, but i feel with correct cars and well done tracks for rf2/ac  this experience can be bigger!!
RF2 or AC, any of it, seems like RF2 had some adventages to represent the old times, i still dream to drove at  Brno 65 with a F3 or FJ, with modern graphics for track and car.
seems like nobody are going to make it, so i start to myself to do some 60's tracks.


Attachment 20170528220216_1.jpg

If I have to choose, rF2 would be a better choice, since AC lacks:

-Proper AI,
-Proper heat transfer,
-Proper suspension modeling,
-A somewhat realistic tyre behaviour,
-A somewhat sensical weight transfer model.

If the models were mine, just for the sake of argument, I'd be pissed as all hell if someone ported them to AC.

#19 Pete Gaimari

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Posted May 29 2017 - 08:15 AM

I prefer the Lotus 49 and Lotus 25 in AC over the eagle in RF2.

Whatever you think AC doesn't have. The cars still feel good to drive and that's the bottom line.

#20 Lord

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Posted May 29 2017 - 08:48 AM

View PostPete Gaimari, on May 29 2017 - 08:15 AM, said:

I prefer the Lotus 49 and Lotus 25 in AC over the eagle in RF2.

Whatever you think AC doesn't have. The cars still feel good to drive and that's the bottom line.

That can't be the bottom line: a simulator must be the best approximation of reality one can realistically have. As a mechanical engineer, people saying "But it does feel good!" as a defense argument for a mediocre product make me cringe. One thing is personal preference, on which nobody has power over anyone else's, but objectively speaking AC is way inferior to rF, rF2 and even GPL in those key areas in physics.

#21 Gui

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Posted May 29 2017 - 08:50 AM

View PostLord, on May 29 2017 - 12:57 AM, said:

To me, it's a big and fat "NO!".

It's a good thing you weren't in charge of GPLEA or GPLPS, then, for this thread's sake :P . I'd like to see that kind of racing be brought back to us and others and I believe the best thing to happen would actually be some of the incredible GPL modders embrace a newer title. The wealth of knowledge and passion here is huge, even if it's just guys providing correct technical information on the cars that's already a good start.

Edited by Gui, May 29 2017 - 08:50 AM.


#22 Lord

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Posted May 29 2017 - 09:10 AM

View PostGui, on May 29 2017 - 08:50 AM, said:

View PostLord, on May 29 2017 - 12:57 AM, said:

To me, it's a big and fat "NO!".

It's a good thing you weren't in charge of GPLEA or GPLPS, then, for this thread's sake :P . I'd like to see that kind of racing be brought back to us and others and I believe the best thing to happen would actually be some of the incredible GPL modders embrace a newer title. The wealth of knowledge and passion here is huge, even if it's just guys providing correct technical information on the cars that's already a good start.

Heh, I am more concerned by the principle of it, to be honest: basically Slimjim got "virtually ran over" for his conversion on rF even when the guys at VirtualClassics (Drako90, Ozpata and Tatinos) got their marvellous expertise on it and changed it into a powerhouse mod with really realistic physics just because "the models are only for GPL", albeit the models are a bit "hit and miss"-looking in rF...
At the very least, if a RF2 convert has to be, we owe Slimjim and VirtualClassics an apology. That's just how I personally see it. :)

Edited by Lord, May 29 2017 - 09:12 AM.


#23 Pete Gaimari

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Posted May 29 2017 - 09:46 AM

View PostLord, on May 29 2017 - 08:48 AM, said:

View PostPete Gaimari, on May 29 2017 - 08:15 AM, said:

I prefer the Lotus 49 and Lotus 25 in AC over the eagle in RF2.

Whatever you think AC doesn't have. The cars still feel good to drive and that's the bottom line.

That can't be the bottom line: a simulator must be the best approximation of reality one can realistically have. As a mechanical engineer, people saying "But it does feel good!" as a defense argument for a mediocre product make me cringe. One thing is personal preference, on which nobody has power over anyone else's, but objectively speaking AC is way inferior to rF, rF2 and even GPL in those key areas in physics.

When we're talking about feel. How can you be so smug to think you're right? I believe someone with racing experience is the best one to ask about feel.

#24 Bernd Nowak

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Posted May 29 2017 - 09:53 AM

View PostGui, on May 28 2017 - 07:25 PM, said:

The thing with GPL is, as stated in previous posts in this topic, it's a complete package focused on a classic F1 season. Only Rouen is the track that doesn't belong but none of us minds it. But GPL is dated and not the friendliest to get running adequately, among other adjustability factors, thus the desire for it being available in a modern platform. Leon nailed it.

The quest for permission is that recreating a car to today's standards takes a lot more work. This wouldn't tick that requirement box but it still could be done to be acceptable looking with the driving experience and hopefully immersion being there. So far there's one user creating a detailed model of a 1967 (F2) car and that's it. There's a reasonable pool of players who would be interested in these cars (and other ones) but no studio will take the plunge, so we continue to rely on modders. Maybe with them doing this much, developers can see the passion still there in a tangible manner, and maybe do something about it. rF2 has a licensed 1967 Eagle F1 since 2011 or so and yet never developed it, as an example.

For me porting a GPL car to any modern SIM makes no sense. The reason is that the the 3DOs had been so much sliced and bend to allow no popups and other problems with the outdated 3D to 2D rasterisers. So in my opinion a modern SIM with a 67 carset makes only sense with a carset build for them.

One can see the import and rework as a shortcut worth a try but I feel that the time it takes to create a good 3D model for a modern sim out of an imported GPL car is the same like if you're trying to build it new. I remember a conversation from GPL to rFactor which had created nice car shapes but had a lot of trouble with FPS a long time. Additional another problem had been to create the physics right.

But because I have not created anything for GPL cars/tracks/sounds I can't give you any permission ;)

#25 Lord

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Posted May 29 2017 - 09:53 AM

View PostPete Gaimari, on May 29 2017 - 09:46 AM, said:

View PostLord, on May 29 2017 - 08:48 AM, said:

View PostPete Gaimari, on May 29 2017 - 08:15 AM, said:

I prefer the Lotus 49 and Lotus 25 in AC over the eagle in RF2.

Whatever you think AC doesn't have. The cars still feel good to drive and that's the bottom line.

That can't be the bottom line: a simulator must be the best approximation of reality one can realistically have. As a mechanical engineer, people saying "But it does feel good!" as a defense argument for a mediocre product make me cringe. One thing is personal preference, on which nobody has power over anyone else's, but objectively speaking AC is way inferior to rF, rF2 and even GPL in those key areas in physics.

When we're talking about feel. How can you be so smug to think you're right? I believe someone with racing experience is the best one to ask about feel.

You can't honestly talk about "feel" when the tyre pressures of the Lotus 49 are totally out of whack, the radiator doesn't heat up and the Lotus 25 handles like no roll-bars have been added at all even if they're at 50 Nm. You can't just throw in random numbers just as long as it feels "right", because, if that would be true, historically accurate mods and research have no reason to exist. That's not being smug, it's about being factual. First you get the models and the numbers accurately within what you can reasonably achieve, then you can focus on the feel and playability. Not the other way around, unless you want a flop like the Williams F1 from Mak-Corp which goes over 7 seconds faster than the real car.



View PostBernd Nowak, on May 29 2017 - 09:53 AM, said:


For me porting a GPL car to any modern SIM makes no sense. The reason is that the the 3DOs had been so much sliced and bend to allow no popups and other problems with the outdated 3D to 2D rasterisers. So in my opinion a modern SIM with a 67 carset makes only sense with a carset build for them.

One can see the import and rework as a shortcut worth a try but I feel that the time it takes to create a good 3D model for a modern sim out of an imported GPL car is the same like if you're trying to build it new. I remember a conversation from GPL to rFactor which had created nice car shapes but had a lot of trouble with FPS a long time. Additional another problem had been to create the physics right.

But because I have not created anything for GPL cars/tracks/sounds I can't give you any permission ;)

Bernd, congrats for hitting the nail in the head at the first try: it's exactly what I experienced when making the 1965 mod for rF: the GPL models look awesome in GPL, but look like utter ::crap:: when imported in rFactor, so I had to learn how to model in 3D and make them basically by scratch. The best use of the GPL models, according to my experience, is as a guide to base the model on, to get the basic shapes and dimensions right: a sort of 3D visual help. For example, there are lots of RA 272 versions out there: basically every single one of them has the same middle, but different noses and backs. Using the GPL model I've thrown a basic model which I've corrected and perfected to achieve all of those versions in rF :)

Edited by Lord, May 29 2017 - 10:05 AM.


#26 Gui

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Posted May 29 2017 - 09:56 AM

Let's not get into an AC x rF2 or other titles discussion here. It always ends up having subjectivity thrown in the mix. It would be great if the discussion was "what game to port the content next" instead, but first there needs to be permission from GPLEA artists. That's the point of this topic, to find a way of contacting the responsible party and getting the person looking to do the port in a proper manner in touch with those guys.

Bernd, I believe the models may be SlimJim with bits used of the GPLEA ones. The thing is the research and care done by the GPL community is immense so the existing knowledge base or content is unmatched when it comes to these historics. So the 3DO may have too many compromises done because of the old game but it still was made to look authentic, like the real thing (I hope my sentence is making sense). It's just the guy - Postipate - trying to do the right thing by everyone, and giving as much credit as possible, and getting permissions from everyone regardless of how small a part it may play.

Edited by Gui, May 29 2017 - 10:06 AM.


#27 Bernd Nowak

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Posted May 29 2017 - 10:17 AM

Your sentence makes sense. I believe Sergio has some knowledge migrating GPL tracks to rF and he knows a little bit about the difference between a 3DO and a rF file.
I believe that a track conversation is a lot of work so I believe with what I know about the car 3DOs it's not worth the work because the car 3DOs are much more work. There's only a handful of people building the car 3DOs and a lot more which can then wrap them up with the textures. The physics are only done by another handful of people. They still enjoy what they are doing and after finishing the 55 mod they now have a break, but a break using their knowledge to build again something new. So time is limited. I understand the need for information and knowledge. Not sure if they can and are willing to share their time helping creating a carset they might not even drive because they prefer the GPL ones.

The main difference with GPL (old) and rF (take any other newer sim with the exclusion of iRacing) is that the lifespan is much shorter. When you are about to think about having a finished version of a mod there's already a new rF and you start again to rebuild for the newer version because the majority of the players moved to the newer version because it's more shiny, more sophisticated.

For me the simplicity of GPL is great with the great tool from Paul Thurston. In GEM+ I choose my carset and then in GPL I find all the stuff in the same places. I remember trying rF and I had difficulties adjusting to the amount of places. The only other product which felt like GPL was iRacing. But iRacing as a service has no carsets like I'm used to from GPL.

#28 Pete Gaimari

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Posted May 29 2017 - 10:23 AM

Lord.....................I might agree with that if it wasn't for iRacing. I'm not sure any other company works harder to get the numbers right than they do. Yet, some of the cars are horrible to drive, and they are always updating the cars. If it's just the numbers that's important why didn't they get it right the first time?
They start with the numbers then they continue to update until it feels right. The feel comes from race drivers giving feedback.

It's more than the numbers when building a virtual car.

Edited by Pete Gaimari, May 29 2017 - 10:24 AM.


#29 sergioloro

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Posted May 29 2017 - 10:37 AM

The guy doing this cars for RF2 is a "physics" guy, he did not know how to model, honestly i think we can give him a try and check result. off course this models are totally outdated for modern sims, but a least it will help to develop this carset for RF2, maybe later somebody are going to show up some interest and make better models for it.
Basically everything from GPL is not useful for modern sims, except the data, i.e. for track, you can use altitudes data, layout or everything to start your project for AC/RF2.

#30 Lord

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Posted May 29 2017 - 11:43 AM

View PostPete Gaimari, on May 29 2017 - 10:23 AM, said:

Lord.....................I might agree with that if it wasn't for iRacing. I'm not sure any other company works harder to get the numbers right than they do. Yet, some of the cars are horrible to drive, and they are always updating the cars. If it's just the numbers that's important why didn't they get it right the first time?
They start with the numbers then they continue to update until it feels right. The feel comes from race drivers giving feedback.

It's more than the numbers when building a virtual car.

It's exactly what I said before: first the numbers, then the playability. If you get the numbers right, the feel is almost instantaneous and there is little to tweak, if you get the numbers wrong and the feel is right, you're actually doing a disservice to your work, because, when the right numbers will be put itn, the feel almost surely will be the almost same, but you'll look like a dork. As the old saying goes, better be safe than sorry.

View Postsergioloro, on May 29 2017 - 10:37 AM, said:

The guy doing this cars for RF2 is a "physics" guy, he did not know how to model, honestly i think we can give him a try and check result. off course this models are totally outdated for modern sims, but a least it will help to develop this carset for RF2, maybe later somebody are going to show up some interest and make better models for it.
Basically everything from GPL is not useful for modern sims, except the data, i.e. for track, you can use altitudes data, layout or everything to start your project for AC/RF2.

I'd propose something similar, but a bit more restrictive: one model of his choosing and he'll make the physics. Then we'll check them and see if he did a good work. If he did, we'll give him all the help and 3D assets he needs :)

Edited by Lord, May 29 2017 - 11:47 AM.





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