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#1 Elijahroberson

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Posted May 12 2017 - 08:02 PM

Sorry for the vague title, I am not sure what to call it. When racing the 55 mod (and most other mods to be honest) I noticed that when you first go out to practice the car is very loose when you accelerate. Maybe it's the tires needing to warm up, I don't know. I assume it's realistic, but it can be frustrating when you are in competition with the AI and your car flies off the track. Any tips on how to handle the car when it is like this?
'

#2 Saiph

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Posted May 13 2017 - 02:09 AM

Your assumption that it's due to the tyres being cold is correct. The answer to the problem is simple: Be gentle with the throttle when accelerating.

GPL is based on an historical era where tyre technology was very primitive compared to today. In the 1950's, 60's and early 70's, cars did not have the massive, soft, slick tyres which are available now. The ones they had then were quite close to the hard road tyres that we see on ordinary cars. Although the 1971 Can-Am mod models wider tyres (and a few of the F1 cars too), the tyre compounds were still relatively undeveloped and hard, and the tyres were usually treaded.

The result of this is that in GPL, you have cars which were developing very well in terms of engine power and performance, but which had some limitations when it came to transferring that raw power onto the track itself.

I can remember when GPL was first released in 1998, many people were complaining that it was "too hard" to drive, and they thought that the tracks were "too slippery". I heard stories that when Papyrus released the demo version of the game in Europe (which allowed you to drive solo testing laps around Monza), people were using so much throttle when they were trying to accelerate out of the pits that they were doing 180-degree spins in the pit lane before they'd even reached the track! Other racing "sims" that were available at the time allowed players to use as much throttle as they wanted, and the cars simply accelerated away in a straight line. GPL was one of the first sims which didn't try to hold the player's hand, and where the cars were programmed to react the way a real-life car would behave. Because of this, a lot of PC racers gave up on GPL because they couldn't be bothered to respect the sim and learn how to drive it properly. But others (like me, and I suspect many of the other people here today in the GPL community) loved this realism, and learned how to get the most out of the cars.

One problem with GPL is that Papyrus were a little rushed into releasing the game, and they didn't have as much time as they wanted to develop the AI drivers and cars (along with quite a few other features which were planned for the game). Consequently, the AI cars do not suffer a performance penalty for having cold tyres. This may put you at a disadvantage in the early part of a race, before your tyres have warmed up. (And also in the early part of practice, when you'll see AI cars doing laps which are much faster than you can manage on cold tyres.) But once your tyres are warm, you should be able to make up for any lost ground.

Sorry if this answer seems a bit long, but I hope it has given you a feeling for why GPL cars drive the way they do. Winning a race in GPL is mostly about respecting the limitations of the car you're in, having the experience to know when you're in a superior position to the other drivers, and being patient enough to take advantage of chances on the track as they arise.

Edited by Saiph, May 13 2017 - 02:17 AM.


#3 Elijahroberson

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Posted May 13 2017 - 07:36 AM

View PostSaiph, on May 13 2017 - 02:09 AM, said:

Your assumption that it's due to the tyres being cold is correct. The answer to the problem is simple: Be gentle with the throttle when accelerating.

GPL is based on an historical era where tyre technology was very primitive compared to today. In the 1950's, 60's and early 70's, cars did not have the massive, soft, slick tyres which are available now. The ones they had then were quite close to the hard road tyres that we see on ordinary cars. Although the 1971 Can-Am mod models wider tyres (and a few of the F1 cars too), the tyre compounds were still relatively undeveloped and hard, and the tyres were usually treaded.

The result of this is that in GPL, you have cars which were developing very well in terms of engine power and performance, but which had some limitations when it came to transferring that raw power onto the track itself.

I can remember when GPL was first released in 1998, many people were complaining that it was "too hard" to drive, and they thought that the tracks were "too slippery". I heard stories that when Papyrus released the demo version of the game in Europe (which allowed you to drive solo testing laps around Monza), people were using so much throttle when they were trying to accelerate out of the pits that they were doing 180-degree spins in the pit lane before they'd even reached the track! Other racing "sims" that were available at the time allowed players to use as much throttle as they wanted, and the cars simply accelerated away in a straight line. GPL was one of the first sims which didn't try to hold the player's hand, and where the cars were programmed to react the way a real-life car would behave. Because of this, a lot of PC racers gave up on GPL because they couldn't be bothered to respect the sim and learn how to drive it properly. But others (like me, and I suspect many of the other people here today in the GPL community) loved this realism, and learned how to get the most out of the cars.

One problem with GPL is that Papyrus were a little rushed into releasing the game, and they didn't have as much time as they wanted to develop the AI drivers and cars (along with quite a few other features which were planned for the game). Consequently, the AI cars do not suffer a performance penalty for having cold tyres. This may put you at a disadvantage in the early part of a race, before your tyres have warmed up. (And also in the early part of practice, when you'll see AI cars doing laps which are much faster than you can manage on cold tyres.) But once your tyres are warm, you should be able to make up for any lost ground.

Sorry if this answer seems a bit long, but I hope it has given you a feeling for why GPL cars drive the way they do. Winning a race in GPL is mostly about respecting the limitations of the car you're in, having the experience to know when you're in a superior position to the other drivers, and being patient enough to take advantage of chances on the track as they arise.

Thanks, at what temperature does that effect go away?

#4 Pete Gaimari

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Posted May 13 2017 - 08:31 AM

Haven't you noticed the AI are slow on the first lap of qualifying?

#5 gliebzeit

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Posted May 13 2017 - 08:41 AM

I feel that a re-stating of the AI practice/qualy sessions programming might help.  :)

During the practice/qualy sessions AI cars go out for 'stints' of 4,5,6, etc lap stints.  When they leave the pits they are on an 'out lap' where their speeds are down from their normal laps.  They make their number of laps and then have an 'in lap' where they slow and then come into the pits.  They sit in the pits and then go out for another 'stint'.

Also, if you've selected a race with two practice sessions, the AI drivers will not approach their maximum qualy speeds until near the end of the second session.

Naturally, the AI will start a race on full tanks fuel tanks filled to the race length (and for the 55Mod, with warm tires) and increase their pace as fuel burns off.  The fastest driver will usually post a 'race fastest lap' near the end of the race.

Edited by gliebzeit, May 14 2017 - 05:57 AM.


#6 PTRACER

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Posted May 13 2017 - 09:45 AM

View Postgliebzeit, on May 13 2017 - 08:41 AM, said:

Naturally, the AI will start a race on full tanks (but warm tires) and increase their pace as fuel burns off.  The fastest driver will usually post a 'race fastest lap' near the end of the race.

Does the AI fuel level change depending on race length? Will they start with less fuel in a Novice race, for example? Or is it full tanks every time?

#7 Pete Gaimari

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Posted May 13 2017 - 10:27 AM

View Postgliebzeit, on May 13 2017 - 08:41 AM, said:

I feel that a re-stating of the AI practice/qualy sessions programming might help.  :)

During the practice/qualy sessions AI cars go out for 'stints' of 4,5,6, etc lap stints.  When they leave the pits they are on an 'out lap' where their speeds are down from their normal laps.  They make their number of laps and then have an 'in lap' where they slow and then come into the pits.  They sit in the pits and then go out for another 'stint'.

Also, if you've selected a race with two practice sessions, the AI drivers will not approach their maximum qualy speeds until near the end of the second session.

Naturally, the AI will start a race on full tanks (but warm tires) and increase their pace as fuel burns off.  The fastest driver will usually post a 'race fastest lap' near the end of the race.

I always suspected the AI started races with warm tires. Why is that? We can't do that, and GPL doesn't have a warm up lap. What was Papy thinking? They didn't have tire warmers back then.

That should be fixed if possible.

#8 gliebzeit

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Posted May 13 2017 - 10:31 AM

PT, sorry, I meant to write fuel tanks filled to the race length.  Got me!  :)

Yeah, Pete, that is a serious factor that Papyrus left out of the sim.  In the code there are many functions that never were completed ... or deleted entirely.  They apparently were in a hurry to release back in 1998.  ;)

#9 jgf

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Posted May 13 2017 - 03:41 PM

View Postgliebzeit, on May 13 2017 - 10:31 AM, said:

...  In the code there are many functions that never were completed ... or deleted entirely.  They apparently were in a hurry to release back in 1998.  ;)

Adjustable weather, a career mode, improved tires, and a few other items, were under development but never implemented;  the F2 and F3 cars ("trainers", apparently a licensing issue) were never completed.  Original release date was planned for spring '99 but Sierra insisted on a pre-Christmas release in '98, so all work on those features was abandoned to concentrate on finishing the F1 physics, setup options, car models, etc. on time.

Why no patch/update to add those features?  Initial sales of GPL were good, but it quickly attained a reputation for an exceedingly steep learning curve - as stated above, you don't just hop in these cars and start driving (I daresay most of us spent our first couple of hours ...or more, regardless of car or track, recovering from spins).  Within a few months there were as many used copies as new copies of GPL on the market since relatively few people were willing to devote the time to learning this sim, sales were never as expected, and Kaemmer moved on other projects (Nascar 4, Nascar 2002/2003, then iracing).

Edited by jgf, May 13 2017 - 03:50 PM.


#10 PTRACER

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Posted May 14 2017 - 02:45 AM

View Postgliebzeit, on May 13 2017 - 10:31 AM, said:

PT, sorry, I meant to write fuel tanks filled to the race length.  Got me!  :)

I was asking a genuine question actually :wave: It's something I've never really understood about GPL's AI.

#11 Pavel

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Posted May 14 2017 - 03:11 AM

View PostPete Gaimari, on May 13 2017 - 10:27 AM, said:

I always suspected the AI started races with warm tires. Why is that? We can't do that, and GPL doesn't have a warm up lap. What was Papy thinking? They didn't have tire warmers back then.

That should be fixed if possible.

No, AI start race on cold tires. And then can warm them according to flags that were set in track lp files. If lp files don't have such flags then AI will always stay with cold tires. If flags were placed wrong then AI will warm their tires faster or slower then player.

Fom Nigel Pattinson:

Quote

Tire Warmup:
You need to have at least one of these or else the AI tires will never get up to temperature. Space them roughly evenly around the track at approx. 2km intervals. The first one is normally about 2km in, the last should be towards the end of the track but before the starting grid and pit stalls. That way the AI start with properly cold tires.

While work on AI files I saw tracks witout tire warmup flags or with wrong placed flags. Currently I'm finishing fixing seson tracks for Can-Am '66 mod. And default lp files for Riverside '66 has first warmup flag after 200 meter from start, but it should be after 2 km from start. So at Riverside '66 AI cars get tires warmer much earlier than usual.

#12 twinpotter

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Posted May 14 2017 - 05:36 AM

jgf-Adjustable weather, a career mode, improved tires

a big +1 from me as well as pit stop repair unless too far gone

TP:

#13 gliebzeit

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Posted May 14 2017 - 05:56 AM

Pavel, for the 55Mod, the AI do have tires that are at their maximum performance at the start of practice sessions and the race.  Here is a statement by Richard Cooke:

"In the LB physics the tires start with almost maximum grip, because I have not found any reference to having to heat up tires from this era to get the best grip.

I have a book on racing technique written by Piero Taruffi in 1958 that has no mention of warming up tires, and a book by Stirling Moss and Laurence Pomeroy that includes some driver technique and technical ideas that also doesn’t  mention needing to heat up the tires.

My own assumption is that when tires were made of predominantly synthetic  compounds these worked best in a narrow temperature band, and this became noticeable @ 1970 when references to people going off on cold tires start to appear in race reports."

... and an anecdote from Royale:

"I have looked around in the library as well and have found nothing. Memory of "warming" up tires at the club level in these parts began in the early 1970s as slicks were introduced in most classes. Slicks then, as now, had no stick until they hit whatever the Goodyear Tech said was the right temperature number. This produced a new approach for the sharp end of the grid: Unlike treaded tires, the key to a pole, or a podium was getting heat in your tires quicker than the next guy; so "he" who pushed the hardest, the earliest, had hotter tires and went faster sooner; unless of course he went off, because his tires were still cold... "

Edited by gliebzeit, May 14 2017 - 06:00 AM.





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