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Set 'em up - the Balue way!


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#1 Balue

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Posted Jan 11 2005 - 06:29 AM

Hello.

Having finally put all the pieces of the setup puzzle together, I will share my thoughts. No discussion here of what the parameters actually are, just what they do :)

All measurements are in English units! :lol:

From the top.......

TIRE PRESSURE - easy one this. Aim for 25psi after a few laps. Sadly you can only go in whole increments, leading to the classic '24 or 26?' dilemma. 26 is fine so long as the temps are reasonable. At most tracks this will mean heading out on 19/20psi. If you often need to go below 19psi to keep the tyres from hitting 27+ when warm, this is a sure sign that you are too wild! Calm down, keep it smooth, stop sliding the front end about. Also if your front tire temps are going over 280degrees you will start to lose grip and laptimes will drop drastically. Again calm down, and read on for tips to keep the temps down. Use asymmetric settings if necessary - they often are.

Tip - if you have trouble with the back end overtaking the front, dropping the rear psi can help, so after six laps you might be running on 25/26 front, 24/24 rear.

WHEEL RATE - never mind the real world, in GPL at most tracks harder settings give better control, because the car slides less, which also keeps front tire temps down. Also harder settings mean you can use lower ride height, which also gives better control. Typically I would use 90-95lbs/in front, 105-115lbs/in at the back. Always symmetrical, whatever Paul Jackson might think!  :P

BUMP - I left this at 2 front and rear for ages. Lately I have found that at tracks where you get a bit of air, e.g. Lime Rock Mountain, raising the front bump to 3 gives better control when you land.

REBOUND - 2 at the front, 3 at the rear. Coupled with the bump settings, this keeps the back end settled when searching for traction out of tricky off-camber, changing gradient bends, like most of the turns at Dijon.

CAMBER - always found this very confusing, so here it goes in my simple terms.
Clicking the right arrow will make the outside warmer, the left the inside :D . You want the temp across the tires to be about 3degrees hotter on the inside of the tire than the outside. Don't be afraid to use camber settings that look a bit odd. Trust the temps!! e.g. Fiorano is unique in my experience in needing positive camber on both front wheels. Getting the camber right can be a nightmare, but it's well worth doing if you want to drive consistent, fast laps. I check and adjust if necessary every time I get out of the car. (Note; at long tracks with lots of turns, like Nurburgring or Schottenring, asymmetric camber is pointless. These are exceptions though - 9 out of 10 tracks will need asymmetric camber.)

BUMP RUBBER - always 1.0in.

TOE-IN - FRONT - always negative. If you want the car to turn in better, increasing (i.e. more negative) the front-toe will help the tires 'dig in', especially in lower speed turns and turns with less grip (off camber, downhill). I use around -0.175 to -0.250.  There are a few tracks where small adjustments can make a noticeable difference, e.g. Dijon (again!), but generally it's not something to spend too much time fiddling with.

TOE-IN - REAR - always positive. Paul Jackson reckons a high setting (0.400) enables him to get more power down. I find this makes the car unstable on the brakes, and I didn't notice any benefit on the gas. I use 0.100 to 0.150.

ROLL BAR STIFFNESS - apart from the differential, this is the easiest and most effective way to get the car handling the way you want. Too much oversteer? Drop the rear bar (or increase the front). Not enough? Raise it (or lower the front). I don't like to have too big a gap between the front and rear values. I tend to think that I'm on the wrong diff if I need to go to extremes with the roll bars. I usually start with 130lbs/in front and rear and adjust as necessary. I find 110 - 150lbs/in is the useful range at the front. Lower than 110 the handling gets a bit vague, higher than 150 the car doesn't turn in so well. I keep the rear bar to a maximum of -40 to + 10 of the front. If it needs more than +10 (i.e. 130lbs/in front, 150 rear) I'd rather add a clutch, or change the coast value on the diff. I don't like the back end to swing about too much.

STATIC RIDE HEIGHT - lower the better. As modelled in GPL it's not actually faster as such, but the control is tighter.

FRONT BRAKE BIAS - one of my great leaps forward in GPL was when I discovered (at Bathurst) that using 50% brake bias made it very hard to lock up the front wheels. Yippee!!!! Brake later, all wheels rolling, full control, marvellous. Keeps the front tire temps down too. Now I use 48% almost everywhere. Never had any problem controlling it, doesn't adversely effect braking distance (it should!), turns in like a charm. It's a fine line though....47% and I'm all over the place :shock:

For the rest, well i don't use the steering hack ([ Hack ] steer_ratio = 0 in core.ini ) so 11:1 is usual. I drive 45/60/1, 60/45/1, 45/60/2 diffs most places. Personal preference :) .

Hope this helps someone unravel the mysteries of the first page of the setup screen :thumbup:

#2 dangermouse

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Posted Jan 11 2005 - 07:17 AM

Many thanks Tom :thumbup:

Maybe I should try and give it a go sometime, eh? :lol:




:wave:

#3 Kanzo

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Posted Jan 11 2005 - 07:34 AM

Fantastic!  :thumbup:

Thanks, Balue!  :wave:

#4 pirenzo

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Posted Jan 11 2005 - 07:42 AM

Hey Tom, I had something like this up my sleave too :)
I didn't want to post it though, because I'd used a lot of intuitive guesswork to explain why everything happens.
Plus I used a bit of GCSE physics to explain something (very simple stuff) but I'm not sure I got the name of the law right.  Knowing the law but attributing the wrong name would be embarrassing, especially as I have a physics exam next thursday...

EDIT:  I just checked the file, mine's 2,094 words  :shock:

Edited by pirenzo, Jan 11 2005 - 09:41 AM.


#5 stuboyle

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Posted Jan 11 2005 - 01:19 PM

Balue, on Jan 11 2005, 12:29 PM, said:

BUMP RUBBER - always 1.0in.

Hey Balue,

Are you limiting your suspension travel by 1/2 inch?  How about always 0.5 inches?

Oh, and thanks for the tips :thumbup:

Edited by stuboyle, Jan 11 2005 - 01:20 PM.


#6 pirenzo

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Posted Jan 11 2005 - 02:33 PM

erm, because in GPL67 (without using GRE) you can't have less than 1.0 in.:P

#7 stuboyle

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Posted Jan 11 2005 - 03:03 PM

pirenzo, on Jan 11 2005, 08:33 PM, said:

erm, because in GPL67 (without using GRE) you can't have less than 1.0 in.:P

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Doh!  I was thinking of the 65 mod.

Thanks Pirenzo.

Stuart

#8 pirenzo

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Posted Jan 11 2005 - 03:09 PM

NP.

Perhaps Balue should have said make them as low as they can go rather than 1.0?

#9 Graham

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Posted Jan 11 2005 - 06:03 PM

Great work, Balue.

I love this guide because you've kept it short, yet still informative.
It's perfect for newbies and the like, who can be easily over-come by
large complex guides.



:bounce:

#10 WelfMan

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Posted Jan 12 2005 - 02:16 AM

Graham, on Jan 12 2005, 01:03 AM, said:

Great work, Balue.

I love this guide because you've kept it short, yet still informative.
It's perfect for newbies and the like, who can be easily over-come by
large complex guides.
:bounce:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yep, I can only second this. :thumbup:
I'd wish for a non US/GB version without imperial units, though. Just for those who're not familiar or too lazy to convert it themselves :D  :rolleyes:

#11 pirenzo

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Posted Jan 12 2005 - 06:51 AM

Well, the problem is metric units are utterly meaningless to us.  Perhaps not as much to brits...
Don't you make your own setups Welf?  You should have a go too if you do.

Edited by pirenzo, Jan 12 2005 - 06:55 AM.


#12 slowmotion

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Posted Jan 12 2005 - 08:21 AM

Thanks Balue  :thumbup:

Printed out what you wrote so I can look at it next time I try my own setup  :)



cheers  :wave:

#13 WelfMan

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Posted Jan 12 2005 - 12:42 PM

pirenzo, on Jan 12 2005, 01:51 PM, said:

Well, the problem is metric units are utterly meaningless to us.  Perhaps not as much to brits...
Don't you make your own setups Welf?  You should have a go too if you do.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As imperial units are to us...;)
I wasn't complaining myself, just pointing out for European fellows just starting with setups...
Yeah, sometimes I do my own but mosttime I tweak other one's to a point where no one would think it's someone elses...  :lol:  :rolleyes:

#14 MECH

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Posted Jan 12 2005 - 12:57 PM

Funny i started GPL in non-metric(English thus) mode and never switched although i'm more used to kph's and cm's (as a mainlander  :) ) i now find it easier to compare mph's and inches for speed and setups....go figure.

#15 Kanzo

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Posted Jan 12 2005 - 03:03 PM

Anybody else prefer metric units? (I do!) Here we go:

TIRE PRESSURE - easy one this. Aim for 172 kPa after a few laps. Sadly you can only go in 7 kPa steps, leading to the classic '165 or 179?' dilemma. 179 is fine so long as the temps are reasonable. At most tracks this will mean heading out on 131/181 kPa. If you often need to go below 131kPa to keep the tyres from hitting 186+ when warm, this is a sure sign that you are too wild! Calm down, keep it smooth, stop sliding the front end about. Also if your front tire temps are going over 138 Celsius degrees you will start to lose grip and laptimes will drop drastically. Again calm down, and read on for tips to keep the temps down. Use asymmetric settings if necessary - they often are.

Tip - if you have trouble with the back end overtaking the front, dropping the rear psi can help, so after six laps you might be running on 172/179 front, 165/165 rear.

WHEEL RATE - never mind the real world, in GPL at most tracks harder settings give better control, because the car slides less, which also keeps front tire temps down. Also harder settings mean you can use lower ride height, which also gives better control. Typically I would use 158-166 N/cm in front, 184-201 N/cm at the back. Always symmetrical, whatever Paul Jackson might think!  

BUMP - I left this at 2 front and rear for ages. Lately I have found that at tracks where you get a bit of air, e.g. Lime Rock Mountain, raising the front bump to 3 gives better control when you land.

REBOUND - 2 at the front, 3 at the rear. Coupled with the bump settings, this keeps the back end settled when searching for traction out of tricky off-camber, changing gradient bends, like most of the turns at Dijon.

CAMBER - always found this very confusing, so here it goes in my simple terms.
Clicking the right arrow will make the outside warmer, the left the inside  . You want the temp across the tires to be about 2 Celsius degrees hotter on the inside of the tire than the outside. Don't be afraid to use camber settings that look a bit odd. Trust the temps!! e.g. Fiorano is unique in my experience in needing positive camber on both front wheels. Getting the camber right can be a nightmare, but it's well worth doing if you want to drive consistent, fast laps. I check and adjust if necessary every time I get out of the car. (Note; at long tracks with lots of turns, like Nurburgring or Schottenring, asymmetric camber is pointless. These are exceptions though - 9 out of 10 tracks will need asymmetric camber.)

BUMP RUBBER - always 2.54 cm.

TOE-IN - FRONT - always negative. If you want the car to turn in better, increasing (i.e. more negative) the front-toe will help the tires 'dig in', especially in lower speed turns and turns with less grip (off camber, downhill). I use around -0.444 to -0.635 cm. There are a few tracks where small adjustments can make a noticeable difference, e.g. Dijon (again!), but generally it's not something to spend too much time fiddling with.

TOE-IN - REAR - always positive. Paul Jackson reckons a high setting (1.016) enables him to get more power down. I find this makes the car unstable on the brakes, and I didn't notice any benefit on the gas. I use 0.254 to 0.381 cm.

ROLL BAR STIFFNESS - apart from the differential, this is the easiest and most effective way to get the car handling the way you want. Too much oversteer? Drop the rear bar (or increase the front). Not enough? Raise it (or lower the front). I don't like to have too big a gap between the front and rear values. I tend to think that I'm on the wrong diff if I need to go to extremes with the roll bars. I usually start with 228 N/cm front and rear and adjust as necessary. I find 193-263 N/cm is the useful range at the front. Lower than 193 the handling gets a bit vague, higher than 263 the car doesn't turn in so well. I keep the rear bar to a maximum of -70 to + 18 of the front. If it needs more than +18 (i.e. 228 N/cm front, 263 N/cm) I'd rather add a clutch, or change the coast value on the diff. I don't like the back end to swing about too much.

STATIC RIDE HEIGHT - lower the better. As modelled in GPL it's not actually faster as such, but the control is tighter.

FRONT BRAKE BIAS - one of my great leaps forward in GPL was when I discovered (at Bathurst) that using 50% brake bias made it very hard to lock up the front wheels. Yippee!!!! Brake later, all wheels rolling, full control, marvellous. Keeps the front tire temps down too. Now I use 48% almost everywhere. Never had any problem controlling it, doesn't adversely effect braking distance (it should!), turns in like a charm. It's a fine line though....47% and I'm all over the place  

For the rest, well i don't use the steering hack ([ Hack ] steer_ratio = 0 in core.ini ) so 11:1 is usual. I drive 45/60/1, 60/45/1, 45/60/2 diffs most places. Personal preference  .

#16 Kanzo

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Posted Jan 12 2005 - 03:06 PM

Tom, how do you set the clutches? (I´ve no idea about that either... :( )

#17 pirenzo

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Posted Jan 12 2005 - 03:23 PM

I just always use 1.  And thanks for the reposting in metric :) :thumbup:

#18 Balue

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Posted Jan 12 2005 - 04:57 PM

Kanzo, on Jan 12 2005, 09:06 PM, said:

Tom, how do you set the clutches? (I´ve no idea about that either... :( )

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Jonathan Davis explains it very well here
http://members.cox.n...9881/index.html

The main point is that adding clutches effects both sides of the diff, so you will get a tighter lock between the rear wheels accelerating and braking. So you might be able to get a slightly better exit, but the car won't turn in as well.

Andreas Wilke's Fast Mexico setups are worth a try to see the effect on track. Most of his setups use 60/60/1, but at Mexico he uses 60/60/2 or 3. Drive the track with his clutches, then just with one. You should notice the benefit of the extra clutches coming out of a couple of turns, but also that some corner entries become harder.


I mostly use one clutch, apart from the BRM and Honda which I tend to drive with silly diffs just for a bit of fun :) .

Edited by Balue, Jan 12 2005 - 04:59 PM.





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