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Gpl, Why Nobody Tried A Game Reload


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#1 Pippen

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Posted Mar 15 2017 - 06:19 PM

Because of the big community I wonder why nobody ever touched a commercial game reload? While the mods are just awesome, with a commerical aspect one could even better this game e.g. with photorealistic graphics, more and more detail while basically using the core program. Who has the copyright of this game and why never ever one touched to develop it further commercially....

#2 mcmirande

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Posted Mar 15 2017 - 10:26 PM

Due to an incredibly good fortune :)

#3 Saiph

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Posted Mar 16 2017 - 01:46 AM

View PostPippen, on Mar 15 2017 - 06:19 PM, said:

.....while basically using the core program.....

That would never work. The GPL graphics engine dates from 1998, an era when 3D graphics chipsets were only just starting to appear on the market. In modern terms, it is very primitive, and simply couldn't handle "photorealistic graphics, more and more detail" etc. GPL graphics can be very difficult to create. It takes mod makers and track builders an enormous amount of time and effort to create the car and track graphics we see today, and once the graphics are created, it takes just as much time to debug them. There are usually many many problems with clipping, with incorrect depth sorting, and a whole load of other glitches as well. This is why it takes a big team and a lot of time to create a fully-functional GPL mod.

In order to update GPL to modern standards, you would effectively have to rewrite the entire game. And I don't think there is anyone in the current GPL community who would be willing to take on that task.

In effect, GPL has been rewritten. Most of the developers involved with it originally have moved on to create racing sims with other companies, and the GPL pedigree still survives in their lineage. The only difference is that the newer sims concentrate on more up-to-date and more popular cars, simply because this is more successful in the modern marketplace. Some sims have attempted to add historic cars to their lineup, but only after they have been released for a while. And those attempts have not always been met with unequivocal praise.

Even if someone was brave enough to try to recreate a modern version of GPL, concentrating primarily on historic cars, they would be met with some big difficulties. Have you ever checked out the licensing agreements listed on pages 45 and 46 of the original GPL "Game Guide"? It's almost two full pages of small print, listing licenses from all the circuits of the era, all the drivers, all the car makes, all the engine makes, and all the other registered names which appear in the original game. To gather those licences for one commercial racing sim these days would cost an astronomical amount of money. I think we can count ourselves lucky that Sierra/Papyrus managed to do it in the 1990's!

So while I agree with your enthusiasm for a new GPL Pippen, if we're being realistic, I don't think there's much chance of it happening at the moment.

Edited by Saiph, Mar 16 2017 - 01:51 AM.


#4 Claudio Pablo Navonne

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Posted Mar 16 2017 - 03:06 AM

View PostSaiph, on Mar 16 2017 - 01:46 AM, said:

View PostPippen, on Mar 15 2017 - 06:19 PM, said:

.....while basically using the core program.....

That would never work. The GPL graphics engine dates from 1998, an era when 3D graphics chipsets were only just starting to appear on the market. In modern terms, it is very primitive, and simply couldn't handle "photorealistic graphics, more and more detail" etc. GPL graphics can be very difficult to create. It takes mod makers and track builders an enormous amount of time and effort to create the car and track graphics we see today, and once the graphics are created, it takes just as much time to debug them. There are usually many many problems with clipping, with incorrect depth sorting, and a whole load of other glitches as well. This is why it takes a big team and a lot of time to create a fully-functional GPL mod.

In order to update GPL to modern standards, you would effectively have to rewrite the entire game. And I don't think there is anyone in the current GPL community who would be willing to take on that task.

In effect, GPL has been rewritten. Most of the developers involved with it originally have moved on to create racing sims with other companies, and the GPL pedigree still survives in their lineage. The only difference is that the newer sims concentrate on more up-to-date and more popular cars, simply because this is more successful in the modern marketplace. Some sims have attempted to add historic cars to their lineup, but only after they have been released for a while. And those attempts have not always been met with unequivocal praise.

Even if someone was brave enough to try to recreate a modern version of GPL, concentrating primarily on historic cars, they would be met with some big difficulties. Have you ever checked out the licensing agreements listed on pages 45 and 46 of the original GPL "Game Guide"? It's almost two full pages of small print, listing licenses from all the circuits of the era, all the drivers, all the car makes, all the engine makes, and all the other registered names which appear in the original game. To gather those licences for one commercial racing sim these days would cost an astronomical amount of money. I think we can count ourselves lucky that Sierra/Papyrus managed to do it in the 1990's!

So while I agree with your enthusiasm for a new GPL Pippen, if we're being realistic, I don't think there's much chance of it happening at the moment.
Excellent, great reading. Highly recommended !!

#5 Fat Rich

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Posted Mar 16 2017 - 04:08 AM

GPL wasn't a commercial success when it launched in the late 90s, it's actually sold reasonably well over it's lifetime but that's only because we're still playing it nearly two decades later :D. On the Assetto Corsa, rF2 and Race Department forums most simracers just aren't interested in old racing cars or tracks, only in easy to drive GT3 cars and endurance racing for some reason :shrug:

Also if you take a game like Assetto Corsa..... their Lotus 49 looks fantastic, it pops and bangs, the brakes squeak, the force feedback is really nice, the physics feel amazing, the brakes now fade with the latest patch.... but I find the GPL version much more fun to drive even though it's handling is unrealistic...... it's got it's own character that sets it apart from other games. But if you re-released GPL with it's original physics simracers would probably complain.

#6 Millennium

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Posted Mar 16 2017 - 04:47 AM

I like the graphics as they are now, I also care more about picture quality than better graphics. GPL looks so crisp and clean when using the 60 fps patch with vsync, the only thing I would love to see added is a good working AI at 60 fps. I don't know if that will ever be possible with this engine though.

A remake would be cool, but it also would probably be very different from the original in a lot of aspects and i like the game as it is,

Edited by Millennium, Mar 16 2017 - 04:47 AM.


#7 Cookie

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Posted Mar 16 2017 - 06:02 AM

View PostMillennium, on Mar 16 2017 - 04:47 AM, said:

I like the graphics as they are now, I also care more about picture quality than better graphics. GPL looks so crisp and clean when using the 60 fps patch with vsync, the only thing I would love to see added is a good working AI at 60 fps. I don't know if that will ever be possible with this engine though.
Maybe there is a solution...
I am not racing vs AI's a lot, but to test my hardware I use the 60fpsaiV1 + a grid of GT's at Monza.
The last time I was astonished how well they behaved and found that with using the 78 Press Bug Fix they were a real challenge!

Does this fix heal the AI behaviour too?

You can try this too, here are my settings:
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#8 maddog

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Posted Mar 16 2017 - 07:12 AM

I took a long look at 60fps Ai behavior a few years ago.  While it's possible to get them to run more closely to the players speed, they come with automated routines, which are hard coded to run at 36fps.  This means, while they can be made to run more competitively, they cannot be made to behave realistically, unless/until someone is able to crack the code, to modify these routines.

My time wasn't wasted, as my experimenting lead to a more realistic CanAm 71 Ai behaviour.  Maddog's Can-Am AI Fix, and then Ai MAX.  60fps Ai would require more than this, to perform properly.  The man who made 60fps possible, did not finish the job.

Edited by maddog, Mar 16 2017 - 07:17 AM.


#9 Cookie

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Posted Mar 16 2017 - 07:26 AM

Here is my rpy where you can look at the AI's behaviour...
https://www.sendspace.com/file/xt7chh

I have not much experience with AI's but with the right factor they behave pretty well, don't judge before you have seen it!

#10 maddog

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Posted Mar 16 2017 - 09:28 AM

Here is an example of what is possible at 36fps, to improve our Can-Am '71's top speed, and behavior on a high speed oval.  With apologies to Pippen as we are off topic, but I hope you find this interesting. :)

. . . . . . . . Attached File  CA71 AI MAX Indy67.zip   3.54MB   11 downloads

#11 John Woods

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Posted Mar 16 2017 - 09:48 AM

View Postmcmirande, on Mar 15 2017 - 10:26 PM, said:

Due to an incredibly good fortune :)

:D


Great answer.
+1


Back off topic...is there a CA71 AI MAX patch already or in the works?
Its a replay in the zip?

Edited by John Woods, Mar 16 2017 - 09:55 AM.


#12 Alter

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Posted Mar 16 2017 - 11:29 AM

GPL is the sim that provides racing as I meant to know when I was a child. It's probably therefore I was definitely disappointed by any other sim I tried, included RFactor that I had to have because of the Südschleife track and the 55mod that GPL doesn't provide until now. I love the sophisticated physics and the old school graphics of GPL. I'm almost shure I wouldn't appreciate a "modern" GPL and am definitely going to try to keep this sim running for the few years left to me using a racing sim.

#13 maddog

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Posted Mar 16 2017 - 11:40 AM

GPL '55 is very close Alter - we are trying to make it perfect.

You'll find the 2 CA71 fix versions hereabouts, in the GPL CanAm 71 Mod section.  The 1st FIX was a single file, which gave all tracks a better performing '71 AI.  The 2nd version is here :   http://srmz.net/inde...owtopic=10333  

MAX was made for 100  tracks,  and  has it's own season.ini, which helps when choosing MAX tracks in GEM+.  Manual install, and 1 file to switch, to change back to original Championship tracks.   Those were not included, as my work did not involve the Mod Team.  

Pavel has just released a CA71 ai modification, which has special .lca track files.  Those have been used on Championship tracks only, so CAN run alongside Maddog's AI FIX, or MAX, with only the 1 file change.   Good racing can be complicated, but only a little. :wave:

Edited by maddog, Mar 16 2017 - 11:46 AM.


#14 Alter

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Posted Mar 16 2017 - 11:50 AM

Thank you maddog. Looking forward to it.

Edited by Alter, Mar 16 2017 - 11:36 PM.


#15 one2fwee

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Posted Mar 16 2017 - 05:05 PM

Wouldn't a 72 fps patch fix the AI problems?
I think I suggested this before but I can't remember if anyone responded.

With a 72fps patch, you could still run the ai at 36hz that they run at in the default game. Then, if their movement looked a bit weird you could interpolate every other frame.

Basically, what I'm saying is 60fps isn't a multiple of the original 36hz / fps whereas 72 is and therefore should match up a lot better and hopefully allow for breaking things a lot less.

Thoughts?



Also, what's the 78 press bug fix? And does it only apply to the can ams? Or everything (including default 67s)?




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