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Malmedy In Gpl


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#1 Remco Hitman - guest

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Posted Mar 18 2010 - 09:01 AM

Right. I think we can all agree Spa in GPL is way off. Like, way, way off!

I really didn't realize just how far off Malmedy is. Looks to me like the original creator made a mistake and modeled it twice!
In game, it goes left-right, left-right. Looking at Google Earth, it goes left-right only once and there's no indication it was ever any different either. And that's excluding terrain elevation and road camber!

I'd been wondering about this when I first heared the onboard recording from 1966 in which the driver barely lifts throughout all of Burnenville and Malmedy.

I'm relieved to hear the age-old Spa project is still in development.

Looks like I'll be in Spa again for the Spa Classic in September and this time I'm certainly going to check out the old parts of the track. I see Kanzo has uploaded some cool shots of the old track to Google Earth. Thanks to Google Earth, I now know to take a right coming out of the parking lot to find the road which leads to Les Combes. I'll probably be giddy as a schoolboy when driving through Burnenville for real (albeit at 70KPH lol), just as I was barreling up and down the road sections in Le Mans 15 times on the thursday before the race last year :P

So. Any thoughts? :)

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#2 ginetto

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Posted Mar 18 2010 - 09:30 AM

According to Basara's deep trough studies, it was a double esse back then but as you said, original is way off, the second one is barely noticeable and the turn,  driving BASARA's layout, is almost a flat out  esse.
Check his layout of that turn.
Any extra info it will be super well accepted :thumbup:

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#3 Kanzo

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Posted Mar 18 2010 - 11:08 AM

Remco, I think that part of the old circuit is now almost under the A27 highway. If you look at this photograph: http://www.panoramio.com/photo/765608 you can notice that the track continued to the left. Take a look at that roundabout in GE and you can see where the old track re-emerges from the bush.

#4 Rudy Dingemans

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Posted Mar 18 2010 - 02:30 PM

Call me weird, although it's obvious the Malmedy section in GPL is way off, I've always thought it was *better* in GPL than in real life. You almost feel like a fighter pilot, swooping down those turns on towards the straight.

Takes skill to get it right, too - probably wasn't quite as exciting in real life. But also likely to be way too dangerous - Spa was hazardous enough in those days....

Regards, Rudy
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#5 Remco Hitman - guest

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Posted Mar 18 2010 - 02:40 PM

Heh, yeah I kinda feel the same way  :P

Don't think it'll be quite as exciting in a more real configuration, it's almost a reversed Eau Rouge in GPL. A lot tougher IMO than Eau Rouge itself!


Thanks for the intel, Kanzo! Could be you're right about the old track veering off to the left some more. Now, I really can't wait to go down there and investigate!

Another thing I noticed in Google Earth is that the Masta kink is invisible on the approach as it is situated directly behind a crest  :shock:

#6 benzman

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Posted Mar 18 2010 - 03:35 PM

I would dearly like to see an accurate Spa and I am glad to see the occasional rumour that the track is still in progress.  From what Ginetto has posted it looks as if John Basara has all or nearly all of the track layout completed.  What is left to do and is anyone working on it?  Is it like building a home-built aircraft? (Ninety percent finished with ninety percent still to go!)  I am prepared to help if necessary.  I have not tried GPL track building but I did a little scenery making for MS Flightsim, so I am not a total technodweeb.  If anyone wants to give me something and points me in the right direction I am willing to give it a try.

#7 JASE

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Posted Mar 19 2010 - 03:08 AM

View PostRemco Hitman, on Mar 18 2010 - 09:01 AM, said:

Right. I think we can all agree Spa in GPL is way off. Like, way, way off!

I really didn't realize just how far off Malmedy is. Looks to me like the original creator made a mistake and modeled it twice!
In game, it goes left-right, left-right. Looking at Google Earth, it goes left-right only once and there's no indication it was ever any different either. And that's excluding terrain elevation and road camber!

I'd been wondering about this when I first heared the onboard recording from 1966 in which the driver barely lifts throughout all of Burnenville and Malmedy.

I'm relieved to hear the age-old Spa project is still in development.

Looks like I'll be in Spa again for the Spa Classic in September and this time I'm certainly going to check out the old parts of the track. I see Kanzo has uploaded some cool shots of the old track to Google Earth. Thanks to Google Earth, I now know to take a right coming out of the parking lot to find the road which leads to Les Combes. I'll probably be giddy as a schoolboy when driving through Burnenville for real (albeit at 70KPH lol), just as I was barreling up and down the road sections in Le Mans 15 times on the thursday before the race last year :P

So. Any thoughts? :)

Having checked out the jpg I've gotta say I'm very surprised and disappointed at how inaccurate the GPL version of the circuit must be. Given the lengths they went to with realism when creating the game, I can't believe that more thought wasn't put into this. The GPL circuit is great fun, but it stings to know that it's not the real thing. I did notice when watching the footage of the old 'Grand Prix' movie that it looked a little different in places. Now I know why!

#8 Ken

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Posted Mar 19 2010 - 03:12 AM

View PostJASE, on Mar 19 2010 - 03:08 AM, said:

Given the lengths they went to with realism when creating the game,

But did they? Physics isn't realistic, original basic papy cars aren't very detailed, not every car had individual sounds and it's not just Spa that isn't mapped accurately. What bits are realistic??

That isn't to say I don't thoroughly enjoy GPL as it is though.  :)

Edited by Ken, Mar 19 2010 - 03:13 AM.


#9 TvO - guest

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Posted Mar 19 2010 - 04:04 AM

I was there in 2005, and tried to take shots of the whole track as we drove on it. However, Malmédy looked so different at first I didn't recognise it so I only have a picture of the exit leading onto the big straightaway to Masta. Malmédy nowadays is a junction where tons of roads combine so either way it doesn't really resemble the 1967 situation anymore, but it is clear that there were no big elevation changes like in GPL. Imagine Papy's Malmedy as flat as a pancake and you're 90% there I reckon.

:wave: Tommie.

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#10 Remco Hitman - guest

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Posted Mar 19 2010 - 04:12 AM

View PostTvO, on Mar 19 2010 - 04:04 AM, said:

I was there in 2005, and tried to take shots of the whole track as we drove on it.

:wave: Tommie.


Thanks Tom Dawg! God, Belgium is fugly :P

#11 ginetto

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Posted Mar 19 2010 - 04:47 AM

View Postbenzman, on Mar 18 2010 - 03:35 PM, said:

I would dearly like to see an accurate Spa and I am glad to see the occasional rumour that the track is still in progress.  From what Ginetto has posted it looks as if John Basara has all or nearly all of the track layout completed.  What is left to do and is anyone working on it?  Is it like building a home-built aircraft? (Ninety percent finished with ninety percent still to go!)  I am prepared to help if necessary.  I have not tried GPL track building but I did a little scenery making for MS Flightsim, so I am not a total technodweeb.  If anyone wants to give me something and points me in the right direction I am willing to give it a try.
The layout is done.
What's missing is the whole scenery around the asphalt ribbon.
Basara got tired of all the problems to solve to make a good GPL track after seeing how easy was working on other simulators.
I and others (I hope) took the project and now is up to us to recreate some realistic 15 kilometers of countryside.
I must tell you that driving it is quite boring compared to papy version and that's the main reason why it got postponed in favor of other tracks I'm trying to finish at the moment :)
So the task now is to create objects, fields and hills in the most accurate way using all the material you can find.
Is a matter of tweaking the GTK placing the right walls and model the elevations of the traces for the hills and bankings and using 123do and photoshop for the houses, and other trackside objects.
If you are confident you can work for a while on these tasks and you're willing to help, PM me .
Everyone of You!  :thumbup:

#12 Remco Hitman - guest

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Posted Mar 19 2010 - 04:51 AM

Great! I am so in! :)

Edited by Remco Hitman, Mar 19 2010 - 04:51 AM.


#13 Kanzo

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Posted Mar 19 2010 - 10:07 AM

View PostRemco Hitman, on Mar 18 2010 - 02:40 PM, said:


Thanks for the intel, Kanzo! Could be you're right about the old track veering off to the left some more. Now, I really can't wait to go down there and investigate!

Another thing I noticed in Google Earth is that the Masta kink is invisible on the approach as it is situated directly behind a crest  :shock:


IIRC when I visited the old track I was also surprised when I tried to recognize the "GPL Malmedy".

Here´s my photo just before Masta: http://www.panoramio.../photo/28959855
My other shots from Spa are here: http://www.panoramio...128950/tags/Spa

Edited by Kanzo, Mar 19 2010 - 10:08 AM.


#14 Remco Hitman - guest

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Posted Mar 19 2010 - 10:16 AM

Great stuuf Kanzo!

Holy :crap: that's dangerous  :shock:

http://www.panoramio.../photo/28960466

#15 benzman

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Posted Mar 19 2010 - 01:31 PM

On YouTube is an extract from the 1966 film 'Grand Prix' and from about 1:15 to about 1:50 it gives a good view of Burnenville and Malmedy and yes, Malmedy looks quite different.  It has virtually no elevation change and looks to be probably flat out.  The second half anyway.

#16 Remco Hitman - guest

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Posted Mar 19 2010 - 04:05 PM

Excellent find, Benzman :)

I've got Grand Prix in 720p but I couldn't find it to check the track  :idunno:


Judging from this excellent footage I think the track was laid out as seen in this pic.

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#17 David Wright Lo67

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Posted Mar 20 2010 - 04:51 AM

A chicane was added at Malmedy for the 1970 GP.

GPL is a stange mixture of amazing details from the period and quite major errors.  Researching the period isn't easy, especially for a team based in the US - though even Watkins Glen is too wide - probably based on its current width.  On the whole I think they did a pretty good job in the timescale available to them - we've had the luxury of ten years to discover the faults :)

#18 dbell84

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Posted Mar 20 2010 - 07:35 AM

Glad to see the Spa project is still active.  Thanks to Kanzo for the pictures he posted.  I knew that Malmedy was off as it has been discussed before, but I've also wondered about the Blanchimont section as well.  Those turns seem tighter than they were in real life.  I couldn't see in the Grand Prix footage where they showed that section and Google Earth won't be any help with all the work they've done on that part of the track in recent years.  I'd like to ask Ginetto if the Basara layout is any different through Blanchimont?

Edited by dbell84, Mar 20 2010 - 09:00 AM.


#19 ginetto

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Posted Mar 20 2010 - 09:29 AM

Yes, I already posted here:wave:

#20 NEChris

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Posted Mar 20 2010 - 06:06 PM

View PostRemco Hitman, on Mar 18 2010 - 09:01 AM, said:

Looks like I'll be in Spa again for the Spa Classic in September and this time I'm certainly going to check out the old parts of the track.
Was at Spa 6 Hours in 2008 and 2009, will be there in 2010 as well. Drove the old track last year as much as possible and indeed, Spa in GPL is really waaaaaaaay off




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