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Jackseller`s Flag Men.


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#1 tjc

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Posted Sep 02 2018 - 06:25 AM

Hi guys,

Just wondering about the flag men made by Jackseller. Found here: https://www.f1legend...ivers/index.php

As with all Jack`s work they are very well done. And I`m very grateful for all his work. I`m simply wondering if they are historically accurate. Did they have Hi-Vis vests in the 60`s?  I`ve searched the net for images of the era but have`nt found all that much to say one way or the other. They look fantastic but I`ve not seen any images to say these guys dressed like that or indeed, didn`t dress like that. As you all know, a lot of images of this time are black and white so a bit hard to tell.

***Edit***

Ok, I`ve actually just found out that Hi-Vis vest were around in the 60`s. They were invented by an American, Bob Switzer, in the 1930`s. But were they used in motor racing?

Edited by tjc, Sep 02 2018 - 08:45 AM.


#2 sergioloro

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Posted Sep 02 2018 - 10:55 AM

this picture from Zandvoort show a marshalls with some kind of Hi-Vis, not same as Jackseller version but pretty close
Attached File  jk9bb8.jpg   95.28K   100 downloads

Edited by sergioloro, Sep 02 2018 - 10:56 AM.


#3 tjc

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Posted Sep 03 2018 - 04:05 AM

That`s an interesting picture Sergio. Over the years I`ve seen a lot of images of F1 in the 60`s and not seen many marshals, flag men etc wearing those kind of vests so as I say, interesting to see this image. I really like the flagmen by Jackseller. They do look a bit "modern" though. It would be really good if Jack had done a checkered vest like the one in the photo. B)

#4 sergioloro

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Posted Sep 03 2018 - 11:42 AM

ye, i have the same feeling about jackseller marshalls, but looking at this picture does not look too far away from reality :) ...

#5 db312

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Posted Sep 03 2018 - 11:46 AM

Sergio, is there a possibility to ameliorate these flagmen like the one on the Zandvoort picture...?...

#6 twinpotter

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Posted Sep 03 2018 - 12:11 PM

I remember watching a Motorsport, documentary (think it was GP Killer Years) and the mention was, from possibly Jackie Stewart (late sixties) and his drive towards safety, that they had to donate fire proof overalls to track Marshall's. Think they were like orange boiler suits, from the picture I viewed from a Marshall at what looked like the Kyalami track. What they had before ? I don't know 🤔

TP

#7 Lord

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Posted Sep 04 2018 - 08:24 AM

View Posttwinpotter, on Sep 03 2018 - 12:11 PM, said:

I remember watching a Motorsport, documentary (think it was GP Killer Years) and the mention was, from possibly Jackie Stewart (late sixties) and his drive towards safety, that they had to donate fire proof overalls to track Marshall's. Think they were like orange boiler suits, from the picture I viewed from a Marshall at what looked like the Kyalami track. What they had before ? I don't know

TP

There are quite a bit of photos that tell the exact opposite: for example, this was from SCCA, 1969. Although your recollection might be true for the period starting from the early 70's...
https://library.revs...ion=p17257coll1

And here's Sebring, 1966.
https://library.revs...ion=p17257coll1
https://library.revs...ion=p17257coll1

Seems like the only ones in jumpsuits/protective gears are drivers and mechanics, almost everyone else is dressed like they would' usually be dressed in those days.
Except the 70's: NOTHING about that clothing is normal. *shudders*

#8 sergioloro

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Posted Sep 04 2018 - 11:04 AM

View Postdb312, on Sep 03 2018 - 11:46 AM, said:

Sergio, is there a possibility to ameliorate these flagmen like the one on the Zandvoort picture...?...

do you mean GPL marshalls ?

#9 db312

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Posted Sep 04 2018 - 12:16 PM

View Postsergioloro, on Sep 04 2018 - 11:04 AM, said:

View Postdb312, on Sep 03 2018 - 11:46 AM, said:

Sergio, is there a possibility to ameliorate these flagmen like the one on the Zandvoort picture...?...

do you mean GPL marshalls ?

Yes...

#10 tjc

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Posted Sep 04 2018 - 04:36 PM

I have to say guys, as much as I like the flagmen done by Jack, as it`s great work from him as usual, I do think they look a little too modern for GPL. For my tastes anyway. It would be great if flagmen more in keeping with the era of GPL could be done to this high standard. :)

Edited by tjc, Sep 04 2018 - 04:37 PM.


#11 twinpotter

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Posted Sep 04 2018 - 05:03 PM

I will have to recheck the documentary GP Killer years, to try find out the year. You could be right Lord, on the early seventies, regarding the marshall, as you say, jump suits 🤔

I know it stated, fire proof overalls, that were donated and I'm presuming, old ones, from the drivers 🤔

But when did the drivers start with fire proof attire 🤔

TP 😁👍

#12 sergioloro

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Posted Sep 04 2018 - 05:47 PM

View Postdb312, on Sep 04 2018 - 12:16 PM, said:

View Postsergioloro, on Sep 04 2018 - 11:04 AM, said:

View Postdb312, on Sep 03 2018 - 11:46 AM, said:

Sergio, is there a possibility to ameliorate these flagmen like the one on the Zandvoort picture...?...

do you mean GPL marshalls ?

Yes...

yes, it is possible, but not sure about all process needed :hmm:

#13 gliebzeit

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Posted Sep 05 2018 - 08:41 AM

Yes, I only use Jackseller's flagmen for the '71 Can-Am and '74 Rallye mods.  :)

#14 G.Spinning

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Posted Sep 06 2018 - 06:05 AM

 sergioloro, on Sep 04 2018 - 05:47 PM, said:

 db312, on Sep 04 2018 - 12:16 PM, said:

 sergioloro, on Sep 04 2018 - 11:04 AM, said:

 db312, on Sep 03 2018 - 11:46 AM, said:

Sergio, is there a possibility to ameliorate these flagmen like the one on the Zandvoort picture...?...

do you mean GPL marshalls ?

Yes...

yes, it is possible, but not sure about all process needed :hmm:
Ameliorate or change appearances of the flagmen involves more than photo shopping the image. I tried some time ago. I wanted to turn, in the original G.P.L. flagmen, the brown trousers in white to be used for the CA66 mode. But I soon abandoned. Here there are some notes from Jackseller:  http://srmz.net/inde...ic=9651&st=45  :wave:

#15 Lord

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Posted Sep 06 2018 - 09:01 AM

 twinpotter, on Sep 04 2018 - 05:03 PM, said:

I will have to recheck the documentary GP Killer years, to try find out the year. You could be right Lord, on the early seventies, regarding the marshall, as you say, jump suits

I know it stated, fire proof overalls, that were donated and I'm presuming, old ones, from the drivers

But when did the drivers start with fire proof attire

TP

It depends on what you mean with "fire-proof": For sure wool shirts have been in use since the early 1930's, since wool takes quite a bit to catch fire... sort of. 4 seconds is better than crispy naked skin.
If you mean "Yes, it's slowly catching fire but still you'll end up crispy if you don't move your ass" you should start researching from 1960, since Clark and Hill that year started using Protex- and Probam-made suits (first a 2-piece suit, then a single-piece), but were basically a single-use suit because the Calcium Chloride used to make them fireproof  washed away with the first round in the washing machine.
In 1964 most of the drivers started using fiberglass-filled single-piece suits, but those were more rigid and easily transmitted heat to the skin: still catched fire really slowly, but heat burns could be your doom, as Bandini showed.

In 1968 Stewart pioneered the use of Dragsters-type suits (aluminium and asbestos... yikes!) but those were really too difficult to both wear and bear (almost 35 kilos each) but in 1969 he got in the fray with the 1964-style suits coupled with Nomex-made tights: this basically made the driver immune to fire and heat (at least on the body... head's another story) for 8 seconds. This clothing became FIA-sanctioned in 1976.

So, Potter, I think that it would be reasonable to say that marshalls started to wear those a year or two after the drivers got them, so... '71/'72?

https://www.formulap...uga-240635.html

#16 db312

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Posted Sep 06 2018 - 10:38 AM

“...Ameliorate or change appearances of the flagmen involves more than photo shopping the image. I tried some time ago. I wanted to turn, in the original G.P.L. flagmen, the brown trousers in white to be used for the CA66 mode. But I soon abandoned. Here there are some notes from Jackseller:  http://srmz.net/inde...ic=9651&st=45   :wave:...“

Thanks a lot for these precious informations G.Spinning !
But as you said, it seems not so easy... Anyway, I'm learning a lot these last months and I would like to try... :wave:

Edited by db312, Sep 06 2018 - 10:39 AM.


#17 tjc

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Posted Sep 06 2018 - 11:21 AM

 db312, on Sep 06 2018 - 10:38 AM, said:

Anyway, I'm learning a lot these last months and I would like to try... :wave:

I like the sound of this db. B)

#18 pioujd428

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Posted Sep 07 2018 - 03:30 AM

Thanks for pointing this out tjc. While I too like the look of Jackseller's flagmen I do not think they are accurate for 60s F1. So I have changed my flagmen back to the originals. I like how they are hardly noticeable as marshalls when they are not holding a flag out. It's how I think it would have been in RL.

#19 tjc

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Posted Sep 07 2018 - 03:52 AM

Your welcome pioujd28. As much as Jack`s flagmen look really good, like all his work, they are that bit too modern. Hopefully one of these very talented modders we have here will be able to do some HQ flagmen that fit the time period a bit better. :)




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