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Cracked American History


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#1 twinpotter

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Posted Oct 08 2016 - 02:44 PM

I found myself watching an old Western Movie today. You know,Cowboys versus Indians and how the cavalry arrived,to save the day,in the final scene.
This led me to find out more about native America and it's history.
Were the native Indians that bad and were the European descendants of early America the saviour of a new world.
Sorry this is very off-topic and in know way is it an attack on any people or nation in any way,so apologies if you feel it is.
I am interested how others feel about the following link and it's information.

http://www.cracked.c...ng-america.html

PS: If moderators feel this thread is a bit close to the bone. Then please accept my apologies for playing the devils advocate and delete the thread if needs be !!

With respect: TP

Edited by twinpotter, Oct 08 2016 - 02:49 PM.


#2 Lord

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Posted Oct 08 2016 - 03:45 PM

Twinpotter, this is mainly a simracing and motorsport forum, I don't think this topic is to be discussed here.
However, pre-colonic historical sources have shown that the "Long House" and the Powhatan Confederacy were mainly aggressive conquerors, so I'd see the whole thing etween a clash between empires (French/British/Spanish vs Indian American).

#3 Robert Fleurke

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Posted Oct 08 2016 - 04:09 PM

Surely you can discuss this, it's the off topic chat subforum. Personally I don't have much interest in the past. It doesn't exist (the "past" was the "now" once). I wasn't there and I refuse to base my opinion based on history books or opposing views. It simply was a different world, a different ocean. It's quite easy to judge and label the past/history with our current ethics and morals (or arguably lack of), it's hypocritical.

Then again, my sympathy lies always with natives and their culture, in this case the Injuns ;)

#4 Saiph

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Posted Oct 08 2016 - 04:35 PM

I think it's interesting to note the comments made in recent times by people in the scientific and science fiction communities, in regard to the search for intelligent alien life. Many of them say that if the human race were to be visited by intelligent alien beings, who had the necessary technology to travel the vast distances between the stars in a practical amount of time, it stands to reason that those aliens would be far in advance of us. And the scenario that they usually depict is similar to that of Europeans arriving for the first time in north and south America. Invasion, subjugation, enslavement, exploitation, and genocide. Of course, that's if you accept the traditional histories of the two continents. As the 'cracked' link shows, there are those who believe in a completely different course of events. With so many sources of 'alternative' information available, and limited amounts of time to engage in the luxury of fact-checking, over time it becomes harder and harder to know what the truth really is. 'You pays your money and you takes your choice'.

EDIT: This blurring of history by time is a very unfortunate thing, IMHO. Unlike Robert, I think we should be able to learn valuable lessons from the past. The human race (or sections of it) has made numerous mistakes in the past, and has made some very bad changes of direction. The rise of fascism in Germany in the 1930's, for example, is one lesson which we must avoid repeating in the future, if at all possible. Human beings are far too fallible, and our societies are extremely vulnerable to eloquent politicians who can manipulate the opinions of large numbers of people, for good and for evil. If there is one thing that can help to protect us against these manipulations, it is the lessons learned from history. But if revisionists can change what history tells us, they can manipulate what we feel about the best direction for the future.

Orwell wasn't joking when he wrote: "Who controls the past, controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past." (1984).

Edited by Saiph, Oct 08 2016 - 05:08 PM.


#5 davef

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Posted Oct 08 2016 - 06:17 PM

twinpotter.

After you have studied the Indian Wars of the old west you might also find most interesting studying the American Civil War.
I have been an avid researcher and buff for almost twenty years now.
The different sequences of events, which in some cases came down to the timing of just a few minutes had a profound impact on the outcome of battles and ultimately the future of the United States. Take for example the failure
of Lee's Army of Northern Virginia to take Little Round Top at Gettysburg. It is a fascinating time period to study about. :)

Edited by davef, Oct 08 2016 - 06:27 PM.


#6 gliebzeit

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Posted Oct 08 2016 - 06:51 PM

Dave, have you read 'Look Away' and 'Until the End: A Novel' by Harold Coyle.  I highly recommend them.

Also, this French and Indian War novel by Coyle is awesome: 'Savage Wilderness'

#7 davef

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Posted Oct 08 2016 - 08:17 PM

Hi Greg,  I've heard about "Look Away" at civilwartalk forum. Looks like I need to read some Harold Coyle. :)

Have enjoyed Michael Shaara's "The Killer Angels" and his son Jeff's continuation of that trilogy and others. Jeff has also written numerous
war novels besides his Civil War series. :)

Edited by davef, Oct 08 2016 - 08:18 PM.


#8 Robert Fleurke

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Posted Oct 09 2016 - 01:56 AM

View PostSaiph, on Oct 08 2016 - 04:35 PM, said:

Unlike Robert, I think we should be able to learn valuable lessons from the past.

Orwell wasn't joking when he wrote: "Who controls the past, controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past." (1984).

I think you misread my comment. Where did I say we shouldn't learn valuable lessons of the past? All I meant is we shouldn't dwell in the past. Also history will repeat itself. But only the "here and now" counts, and is reality.

Your quote of Orwell is very apt though.

#9 twinpotter

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Posted Oct 09 2016 - 03:52 AM

Thanks all for your valuable thoughts.
When I posted this thread I was in no means intending to be derogatory,but to possible inform,interest and find out peoples thoughts.
Even though I researched some American history it was only a small amount Dave,so I have not looked at the civil war section,but I am sure it will be very interesting to research. Thanks for that Dave!
Some good points from Saiph and Robert too. Much agree.

Thanks all again !

TP:

#10 John Woods

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Posted Oct 10 2016 - 08:47 AM

Outlaw Josie Wales is one of my favorite westerns.
Especially the part where Josie goes and talks with Ten Bears.

It saddens me there are still reservations for native Americans. No credit to me personally, my great-great grandfather married a native American woman named Nancy Creek, whom we think was among those marched to Oklahoma along the Trail of Tears...an ugly horror if there ever was one. All along the Trail, native Americans who escaped or were left behind to die were saved from tragedy and sheltered by those who were sympathetic to their suffering. My great grandmother visited her cousins on the reservations during summers while a young girl.

JMO there are three paramount sins...arrogance, ignorance, and greed. The humble, intelligent, and generous suffer their company but cannot avoid the constant never-ending confrontation.

The battle rages on and any current victor will write a new history to justify and favor their perspective, whether fact or fiction...no surprise about that. It goes back at least as far as Caesar's Gallic Wars.

Edited by John Woods, Oct 10 2016 - 08:49 AM.


#11 JMF

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Posted Oct 11 2016 - 08:53 AM

This is a thread I can probably shut down easily if I want. I'll try not to but I can't guarantee that.

The link doesn't seem too bad. Parts of it I find very stupid though, like this comment:

"Even after he landed in America, Columbus didn't realize he'd discovered an entire continent because maps of America were far less reliable back then."

What European had any map of North America in 1492?

I also didn't care much for using a picture of a blond haired white women to represent a sexy Indian woman. A picture of a young Hypatia Lee would have been much better representation.

twinpotter, here's some videos you may find interesting.

As Rob says, history repeats itself. Here's some more recent history of the natives.

Broken Rainbow
https://www.youtube....h?v=W5z8OgMfXXc

You can also web search for "sioux protest pipeline" to learn more about present differences between the natives and big business.

Sand Creek Massacre.

https://www.youtube....h?v=dDnPT1qYa64

And here's one I liked a lot. It's a five part series concerning Indian history since 1620.

We Shall Remain.

https://www.youtube....h?v=b-KGrSEADDc

Edited by JMF, Oct 11 2016 - 09:00 AM.


#12 twinpotter

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Posted Oct 11 2016 - 01:55 PM

Thanks JMF for those links. Very interesting and useful.

Deepest honour and respect regarding this thread !

TP:

#13 leon_90

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Posted Oct 14 2016 - 03:12 AM

Columbus never landed in North America but in San Salvador (he gave it that name)

Anyway I'll just say this, as I don't want to talk about these kind of subject in a simracing forum: history gets written by the stronger (not always the winner, mind you). Do you believe, for example, that all of the conquests made by Rome were done just to bring civilisation to "less advanced" (by who's standard?) cultures? (A trend we tend to see also today)
No. We now know that Caesar made a genocide for futile reasons in Britain, then Augustus in Germany and so on and so forth. But for centuries history told us that the roman empire was a beautiful thing, where rules were fair and life was just, destroyed by the greed of some. It was not. Roman empire was one of the most brutal and violent regime to ever live in or face in case of war. You wouldn't like one bit to live in it.

This applies to many other cases. I might say, this applies to all written history itself. What we know is the peculiar vision of the events had by a specific faction at a certain moment in time. We never know how truly things went, and we never will.





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