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Fuel Capacity Is Not Right

Fuel tanks on F1 cars

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#41 leon_90

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Posted Jan 03 2020 - 06:55 AM

View PostAngus Baltimore, on Jan 02 2020 - 03:16 AM, said:

A rough calculation looking at my water bottles, i come to 30 liters on each side

That sounds a legit scientific approach :D

#42 Lee200

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Posted Jan 03 2020 - 08:17 AM

I must say that this has been one of the most entertaining threads we've had in a long time.  :)

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Edited by Lee200, Jan 03 2020 - 08:18 AM.


#43 KARTM

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Posted Jan 03 2020 - 09:27 AM

View PostPavel, on Jan 03 2020 - 06:35 AM, said:

Just note. Fuel tank capacity was restricted by FIA rules depending on engine capacity. Appendix "J" to the International Sporting Code has such engine vs. fuel tank table https://historicdb.f...riod-appendix-j

1965-1968
1301 cc to 1600 cc - 100 l. max
1601 cc to 2000 cc - 110 l. max
2001 cc to 2500 cc - 120 l. max
2501 cc to 3000 cc - 130 l. max

1969
1301 cc to 1600 cc - 90 l. max
1601 cc to 2000 cc - 100 l. max
2001 cc to 2500 cc - 110 l. max
2501 cc to 3000 cc - 120 l. max

According to rules Brabham BT24 couldn't have 135 liters fuel tank.
those are touring car rules  groupe 1-2-3-4, there was no fuel capacity limit in formula car,

Edited by KARTM, Jan 03 2020 - 04:05 PM.


#44 paul_v

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Posted Jan 03 2020 - 01:43 PM

Ah... don't forget about the mechanics gallon...

The difference between finishing or not. Especially in a Lotus.

Paul

#45 M Needforspeed

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Posted Jan 03 2020 - 02:41 PM

to keep the petrol flame alive, I want to find on my HDD  F1 1967 season cars consumption per 100 Km.

From memory, I have  data saying around 28 Liters/ 100 Kms, depending on the track. Grand Prix races length where around 370 km in average, 3.7 X 28 = 104 Liters. With a maximum CSI rules of 130 liters for under 3.0L cars, it shld have been OK for all the entrants.

the consumption for usual european family cars ( cyl 1.8 liters or 2.0 liters)  was 12 L / 100.

To compare with big bore Sports cars of the same era, the Ford MK IV number was around 45 L/100 Km.

What we cldn't do for you, Angus?

Edited by M Needforspeed, Jan 03 2020 - 03:07 PM.


#46 M Needforspeed

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Posted Jan 03 2020 - 02:57 PM

View Postpaul_v, on Jan 03 2020 - 01:43 PM, said:

Ah... don't forget about the mechanics gallon...

The difference between finishing or not. Especially in a Lotus.

Paul

If you relates to what happened to Jim Clark at Monza, in fact, when the mechanics controlled the bags, there was enough gasoline in the tanks left.The Cosworth starving was related to the fuel pumps or something wrong on the pipes line, if I remember...

Amon Ferrari at Mexico suffered from an engine starving, too, John Love with the Cooper T 79 / Climax 2.7 L lost the race at Kyalami, for a frustrating refuelling stop.

But as Paul suggests, mechanics were playing with the expected consumption, and gas tanks weren't always full at the start.

Edited by M Needforspeed, Jan 03 2020 - 03:52 PM.


#47 M Needforspeed

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Posted Jan 03 2020 - 03:05 PM

View PostLee200, on Jan 03 2020 - 08:17 AM, said:

I must say that this has been one of the most entertaining threads we've had in a long time.  :)
:up:

#48 KARTM

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Posted Jan 03 2020 - 03:43 PM

i dont know why i bother , on the previous page there was a cutaway  of a lotus 25-33  of the 1.5 l era but im sure our distinguished guess doesnt have a clue what it mean or when it was anyway  ,again according to the "history of grand prix car " by doug nye  they were already using rubber cell  two large on each side and a small behind the seat for a total of 26 imp gall and for some race it was possible to add another 5.5 imp gal tank over the leg , so a total of 31.5 , BRM had exactly the same capacity  , 31.5 imp gall  = 143 L

Edited by KARTM, Jan 03 2020 - 03:46 PM.


#49 Angus Baltimore

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Posted Jan 04 2020 - 03:43 AM

i think i have enough proof, now you're free to have your believes and i'm free to have mine.
There is no way to put 100 liters inside the cockpit of the old era of formula 1.

And about the 200 liters in a small bladder for the new era, what a joke.

Attached File  F1.jpeg   119.64K   16 downloadsAttached File  F1 2.jpeg   141.77K   20 downloadsAttached File  F1 3.jpg   156.33K   20 downloadsAttached File  Lotus 33.jpg   280.26K   28 downloadsAttached File  F1 4.jpg   88.89K   26 downloadsAttached File  F1 5.jpg   261.47K   28 downloadsAttached File  F1 6.jpg   123.18K   23 downloadsAttached File  F1 7.jpg   40.12K   25 downloadsAttached File  les-baignoires-rectangulaires-font-aussi-dans-le-xs_4701715.jpg   19.67K   21 downloadsAttached File  baignoire-miniature-acrylique-mini-100x70.html   150.06K   9 downloads

#50 Bob Simpson

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Posted Jan 04 2020 - 12:45 PM

As an exercise in estimating, it looks like I can make a pretty good estimate of length from the Ferrari 246F1 (fuel volume = 125 L) picture above at 1360 mm.

Estimating height and width is harder, but I tried anyway. Looking at the picture from  http://www.gurneyfla...9;s.html¬†¬†might make it a bit easier.

So it looks like 1360 x 350 x 150 would give 71,400,000 mm3 or 71.4 L per side tank.

This is obviously an estimate, but makes me think that the volume of 125 L is possible.

(Sorry, I attached the drawing without the dimensions)

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Edited by Bob Simpson, Jan 04 2020 - 03:32 PM.


#51 gliebzeit

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Posted Jan 04 2020 - 06:11 PM

Super work, Bob!

#52 Michkov

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Posted Jan 05 2020 - 02:25 AM

That fits my own estimate from the Cooper in post #3. Add a saddle tank as later cars did and you'll get an easy 160l.

#53 M Needforspeed

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Posted Jan 05 2020 - 04:55 AM

View PostM Needforspeed, on Dec 31 2019 - 02:42 AM, said:

Angus,

  for the sixties single seaters cars, imagine  an object measuring 1m L X 0,2m l x 0,3m h = 0.06 m3

  0.06 m3 = 60 dm3= 60 liters x 2 sides = 120 liters

   There is quite easily enough room to put the object on each side of those cars, if you compare with their wheelbase.They had largely  a minimum of 1.6m available, to put something in between  !( Lotus 49 wheelbase = 2.41 m. )
I can't see where is the problem ? And on some F1 cars they added a small extra fuel tank behind the driver legs.

Compared with the Cooper T 51 blueprint above, there was larger volume, for the same wheelbase length. The driver and engine where put further back to the rear wheels train

objects volume capacity look really smaller than they are, as said Michkov

View PostAngus Baltimore, on Dec 31 2019 - 04:36 AM, said:

I'm not talking about imagining or assuming, i'm talking about facts. No place for 13 Jarricans on each side of the driver, no matter the shape or size of the aluminium tank and how do you fit 230 liters (46 Jerricans) in that small "bladder"  behind the driver in modern cars ?

Something just doesn't add on.

View PostM Needforspeed, on Dec 31 2019 - 05:31 AM, said:

I can't see why puttings numbers are imagining things ? I think I am talking about facts, either.... That's your jerrycan problem,not F1 side problem...I am talking about sixties cigar shaped cars, and their consumption wasn't so much, far fom 230 liters

1.4 x 0.20 X 0.30 = 84 dm3 = 84 Liters on each side= 168 L . With the consumption numbers put by Philippe for Repco and Cosworth, there is no problems at all. 1.4 being a really pessimistic figure for the inside body structure length available on those cars .0.20 width available,  is pessimistic too, put for purpose of the topic
.In the seventies, F1 cars have seen their cockpit sides enlarged, so, even with the new safety tank rules mandatory for 1973 and after, they cld embark more gas.

At the end , facts are facts...


Thanks Bob and happy new year.

The same calculations than yours have been done at the beginning of the topic, but apparently with not any persuasives results on Angus...

Because Angus, the way you are handling the question with your Jerrycans sized 5 liters, is anyway very interesting

Edited by M Needforspeed, Jan 21 2020 - 02:50 PM.


#54 M Needforspeed

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Posted Jan 05 2020 - 05:44 AM

on Bob numbers, (142 L - 125 L) / 142 , around 12 % volume theoric margin to add extra fuel is possible.But there is room needed for spaceframe tubes and the thickness of the bulkheads sheets

Edited by M Needforspeed, Jan 05 2020 - 05:54 AM.


#55 Angus Baltimore

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Posted Jan 21 2020 - 06:01 AM

Where is the fuel ? 150 liters in a bladder ? But Where ?

https://www.youtube....h?v=0qb8jXrgPPo

https://www.youtube....h?v=2SwcQM7m-hE

https://www.youtube....h?v=PQBQje5rCSQ



Wake up guys !

Edited by Angus Baltimore, Jan 21 2020 - 06:13 AM.


#56 M Needforspeed

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Posted Jan 21 2020 - 02:14 PM

Hello Angus,

Sometimes going for the simpliest figures imprint something strong in the brain

1 cubic meter, not that big = 1000 liters . Take unused cardboard at home, and built this cube.Look at it in depth.

Then,do the same using cardboard , built a cube sized  50 cm.The volume content  of that one is 125 liters.8 times less

Put the two cubes together.Have a careful look at them.

Wld you believe ?

Edited by M Needforspeed, Jan 21 2020 - 02:54 PM.





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