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Fuel Capacity Is Not Right

Fuel tanks on F1 cars

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#21 Angus Baltimore

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Posted Jan 01 2020 - 03:32 AM

View PostM Needforspeed, on Dec 31 2019 - 05:59 AM, said:

Sorry but even 150 Liters where easy to fit on end of the sixties F1 cars . Look at the numbers, for a change !

I am not talking about modern F1 cars and fuel tanks capacity behind the driver, because there are two different subjects in your topic.

So you do realize there is a problem with modern F1's.

Attached File  1968 brabham bt26 - fuel tank 1.jpg   149.85K   22 downloadsAttached File  1968 brabham bt26 - fuel tank 2.jpg   169.78K   30 downloadsAttached File  1968 brabham bt26 - fuel tank 3.jpg   281.87K   31 downloadsAttached File  1968 brabham bt26 - fuel tank 4.jpg   132.51K   24 downloadsAttached File  1968 brabham bt26 - fuel tank 5.png   133.37K   25 downloadsAttached File  1968 brabham bt26 - fuel tank 6.jpg   274.15K   34 downloads
Attached File  1968 brabham bt26 - fuel tank.jpg   215.57K   28 downloads

These are some pics from the old era, how can anyone fit 100 liters of anything inside that cockpit when someone is siting in it ?

I chose the 5 liters Jerricans or 5 liters water bottles so everyone can see how big it is.
Now sit down and put 13 bottles of 5 liters each on your left side and the same amount on your right side, and now you can see what i'm talking about, there is not enough room in that cockpit, it's a race car no a van.

Ask yourself a smart question :
How come there is NO information on size on any fuel tanks of that era ?

Don't even look at the bladder, even a 10 years old kid can tell you there is not enough room for 30 liters of fuel.

#22 fajanko

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Posted Jan 01 2020 - 05:43 AM

Come on mate! Let it go.

#23 Angus Baltimore

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Posted Jan 01 2020 - 07:02 AM

View Postfajanko, on Jan 01 2020 - 05:43 AM, said:

Come on mate! Let it go.

You don't wanna know what is going on ?
i'm looking for answers and i don't have anything on the internet.

#24 Saiph

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Posted Jan 01 2020 - 08:29 AM

Angus, don't forget that although the fuel tanks appear to be very narrow, on most cars they run from near the base of the tub all the way up to just underneath the edge of the cockpit, and they also run all the way from just in front of the engine mounting bulkhead forwards to near the drivers' feet. So there is actually a lot of space in there. I see no problem at all with a volume like that holding 60 - 70 litres of fuel on each side.

And even if you hold a different opinion, you have to ask yourself why anyone would want to "cover up" the fuel capacity of a racing car. What difference does it make? Do you think that there's some kind of conspiracy theory going on? If there isn't enough room inside the cars for the stated amount of fuel, then how did they race the distances that they did without making more fuel stops?

Edited by Saiph, Jan 01 2020 - 08:36 AM.


#25 KARTM

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Posted Jan 01 2020 - 08:41 AM

when i was a kid there was sometime plans and cutaway in books and magazine that was christmas for me , now you only have to do a small research on the tatanet and you have a zillion  plans so i dont see the problem

Attached Files


Edited by KARTM, Jan 01 2020 - 08:42 AM.


#26 M Needforspeed

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Posted Jan 01 2020 - 09:10 AM

...

Edited by M Needforspeed, Jan 01 2020 - 09:20 AM.


#27 M Needforspeed

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Posted Jan 01 2020 - 09:15 AM

Angus,

Your feeling is that shape of the cockpit sides of the sixties single seaters you posted, look vertical to the driver body position. But in fact, if you look at the driver seats from a vertical line, you' ll see there was a long sheet construction on each side going at the level of the driver forearms . The petrol was inside those structures, running as Saiph said, from the back of the front bulkhead to the back of the driver seat.See the pic of this McLaren M4 A as an example. this structure cut in slice may look small, but  put your bottle of 5 liters, and it will fit inside.

I really think, we have spent alls too much energy :D  to find petrol room on this topic,cause the answers are simple reality numbers.

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Edited by M Needforspeed, Jan 02 2020 - 03:40 AM.


#28 Angus Baltimore

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Posted Jan 01 2020 - 09:33 AM

KARTM thanks for the scheme but no way to zoom in to see the size of it.

Saiph thanks again for your reply, i'm just trying to understand, what a real fan of formula 1 would do.



M Needforspeed thanks again, if no one has any fuel tank scheme that's fine we can close the topic here i'll do my research alone. I was just hoping to find some answers in this community.

#29 Michkov

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Posted Jan 02 2020 - 12:28 AM

Let's try this again here we have an early to mid 60s Cooper skinless. Tanks are the silver colored shapes to the side and over the steering column. Figure out the type of car, get some rudimentary dimensions and get the dimensions for the fuel tanks. Plug the numbers into the right equations, lets say volume of cylinder, it will be a lower estimate since the tanks look more oval in front view than half circles. That's that for the olden cars.

Posted Image

Modern ones you can to the same with the Sauber cutaway. Keep in mind that is a 2008 car, build with refueling in mind so the tank is undersized for the current generation cars.
Posted Image

#30 Angus Baltimore

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Posted Jan 02 2020 - 03:16 AM

Hi Michkov and thanks for your reply.
First pics of old tanks, a shame we don't have the scale. A rough calculation looking at my water bottles, i come to 30 liters on each side, which is a lot for that place.

About the new era, the bladder i posted is supposed to fit up to 160 liters after 2010 regulation (no refueling). It's a lot when you see the space between the engine and the driver's sit.
What i think is they're using engines more efficient that they let us know.

#31 Angus Baltimore

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Posted Jan 02 2020 - 04:29 AM

Here's what i was looking for :

Attached File  Lotus 33.jpg   280.26K   25 downloads

This definitely nails it. There is not enough room for that amount of fuel, you can't just put 2 big tanks on each side of the cockpit, you have pipes and wires running back and forth and some equipments, and i was suspicious about the 2 huge tanks from Michkov's pic.

#32 fajanko

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Posted Jan 02 2020 - 05:10 AM

View PostAngus Baltimore, on Jan 02 2020 - 04:29 AM, said:

Here's what i was looking for :

Attachment Lotus 33.jpg

This definitely nails it. There is not enough room for that amount of fuel, you can't just put 2 big tanks on each side of the cockpit, you have pipes and wires running back and forth and some equipments, and i was suspicious about the 2 huge tanks from Michkov's pic.

Please go to the Repco Brabham facebook group I linked before, and contact an OWNER for details.

Attached Files



#33 paul_v

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Posted Jan 02 2020 - 05:35 AM

Hi guys, I go to the Goodwood members club day and the revival every year.

I will ask questions and take pics if you think it might be helpful.

Paul Villiers.

#34 KARTM

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Posted Jan 02 2020 - 06:12 AM

dont bother , learning the difference between a 2.5 l cooper car of 59 and a lotus of the 1.5 l era, would help more , that and basic high school level of math-trigo and geometry ,o and basic puter sapiens like how to increase  the size of an image

Edited by KARTM, Jan 02 2020 - 06:19 AM.


#35 Angus Baltimore

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Posted Jan 02 2020 - 06:38 AM

View PostKARTM, on Jan 02 2020 - 06:12 AM, said:

dont bother , learning the difference between a 2.5 l cooper car of 59 and a lotus of the 1.5 l era, would help more , that and basic high school level of math-trigo and geometry ,o and basic puter sapiens like how to increase  the size of an image
i did increase the size of your scheme, but it was too shady, unlike the one i downloaded.

View Postpaul_v, on Jan 02 2020 - 05:35 AM, said:

Hi guys, I go to the Goodwood members club day and the revival every year.

I will ask questions and take pics if you think it might be helpful.

Paul Villiers.

Hi Paul, i don't think they're gonna give you any information since they signed a contract of secrecy, like most of the big business's. But you can look around for sure.

#36 JonnyA

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Posted Jan 02 2020 - 07:01 AM

I've been biting my tongue for a few days but...

Angus, if you don't think 1960s F1 cars held the amount of fuel that written records suggest, how do you think they manage to do such long races? Can't you just accept that trying to estimate volumes by eye is extremely difficult? Isn't that a more likely explanation? Frankly you come across as a troll.

#37 Angus Baltimore

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Posted Jan 02 2020 - 10:00 AM

View PostJonnyA, on Jan 02 2020 - 07:01 AM, said:

I've been biting my tongue for a few days but...

Angus, if you don't think 1960s F1 cars held the amount of fuel that written records suggest, how do you think they manage to do such long races? Can't you just accept that trying to estimate volumes by eye is extremely difficult? Isn't that a more likely explanation? Frankly you come across as a troll.

i'm saying they are using engines far more efficient than the one's we have in our everyday life, what is the problem ? Asking the right question is wrong ?
Do you guys believe everything they tell you or do you just sometimes use your own logic, discernement to see what is going on. Look at the "bladder" and tell me how you would fit 160 liters in that small space near the engine, it's just logic not need to be a scientist.

#38 Saiph

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Posted Jan 02 2020 - 02:44 PM

View PostAngus Baltimore, on Jan 01 2020 - 07:02 AM, said:

You don't wanna know what is going on ?
......

View PostAngus Baltimore, on Jan 02 2020 - 06:38 AM, said:

.....
Hi Paul, i don't think they're gonna give you any information since they signed a contract of secrecy, like most of the big business's. .....

View PostAngus Baltimore, on Jan 02 2020 - 10:00 AM, said:

.....
Do you guys believe everything they tell you or do you just sometimes use your own logic, discernement to see what is going on.
.....

Sorry Angus but you sound like a paranoid conspiracy theorist and I'm not going waste any more of my time reading this thread. Bye.

#39 Angus Baltimore

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Posted Jan 03 2020 - 03:32 AM

View PostSaiph, on Jan 02 2020 - 02:44 PM, said:

Sorry Angus but you sound like a paranoid conspiracy theorist and I'm not going waste any more of my time reading this thread. Bye.

Hi Saiph, it's kind of funny each time someone is asking the right questions, someone else calls him by "conspiracy theorist" or "troll" or crazy nut, i'm not here to call people names, just asking if someone else is wondering what is going on with F1 fuel tanks. The figures don't add up, not enough room that's it. So i think they are using engines that are far, far more efficient than what we think, or are told to think.

Like i said even a kid can tell you there is no room for 160 liters on that bladder that they show everywhere. Maths don't lie, the volume is too big for that amount : 120 liters for old era and 160 liters for new era.

This appart i respect you a lot for keeping GPL alive along with many others.

#40 Pavel

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Posted Jan 03 2020 - 06:35 AM

Just note. Fuel tank capacity was restricted by FIA rules depending on engine capacity. Appendix "J" to the International Sporting Code has such engine vs. fuel tank table https://historicdb.f...riod-appendix-j

1965-1968
1301 cc to 1600 cc - 100 l. max
1601 cc to 2000 cc - 110 l. max
2001 cc to 2500 cc - 120 l. max
2501 cc to 3000 cc - 130 l. max

1969
1301 cc to 1600 cc - 90 l. max
1601 cc to 2000 cc - 100 l. max
2001 cc to 2500 cc - 110 l. max
2501 cc to 3000 cc - 120 l. max

According to rules Brabham BT24 couldn't have 135 liters fuel tank.

Edited by Pavel, Jan 03 2020 - 06:38 AM.





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